Path of life nodes

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deteego wrote:

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RagnarokChu wrote:

I don't understand "being forced to cap resistances."

If you don't get them really high, then you die faster. If you don't want to die faster then you get them as high as possible. If you don't want a static improvement to resists every single point added in and have it scale, then you have the exact same outcome that people would try to stack the bare min of resist or stack it as high as possible (ala D3)

I don't understand path of life nodes either.

It's a RPG, please enlighten me in what game were it isn't good to stack as much health/resists as possible unless your giving it up to do something else.

Uh, do you understand PoE mechanics? Here, let me drop you a link

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Resistances

In D3, I definitely did not need to cap resists to progress, in PoE, I definitely do need to cap resists to progress. Its not that you just "die faster", the difference between 75% resistance to 77% resistance can be the difference between one shot, and just getting your health lowered by half

The MR mechanic is utterly retarded, I have no idea why you are defending it

Also regarding pure defense stacking, PoE is also the worst aRPG in this area. In D3 you can almost go pure glass cannon and be viable, and you can do the same in TL2, for the reasons I have outlined earlier

Honestly making MR stack with diminishing returns is the nicest way to solve this problem. That way, you can still continuously stick MR if you want to, and your return are still good (going from 80 resist to 82 resist is a ridiculous jump), but it would definitely equalize the amount of MR that characters can get. The difference between a character fully going MR might be 80%, and doing a decent amount of MR might be 70%, instead of now which would be something like -30% all the way to 88%

You cannot go pure glass cannon in D3 please don't make shit up, the affixes like molten-plague/arcane sentry/mortar one shots you even easier then they do in PoE if your squishy, there was countless nerfs to monster in inferno mode in D3 and you still need to stack multitudes of resists just to complete the game. The top builds in D3 involve perma freezing everything to death, being completely immune to everything and spinning around in a circle with massive life leech and aoe damage and similar builds.

You can't "cap" resist in D3 but people play it exactly the same way they do any other ARPG. Do the bare min (600 all resist) or stack as much as possible.

You can state that resist might be a bad mechanic in arpgs, but everyone needs to stop making up shit that is completely untrue when compared to OTHER arpgs.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

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deteego wrote:

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RagnarokChu wrote:

I don't understand "being forced to cap resistances."

If you don't get them really high, then you die faster. If you don't want to die faster then you get them as high as possible. If you don't want a static improvement to resists every single point added in and have it scale, then you have the exact same outcome that people would try to stack the bare min of resist or stack it as high as possible (ala D3)

I don't understand path of life nodes either.

It's a RPG, please enlighten me in what game were it isn't good to stack as much health/resists as possible unless your giving it up to do something else.

Uh, do you understand PoE mechanics? Here, let me drop you a link

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Resistances

In D3, I definitely did not need to cap resists to progress, in PoE, I definitely do need to cap resists to progress. Its not that you just "die faster", the difference between 75% resistance to 77% resistance can be the difference between one shot, and just getting your health lowered by half

The MR mechanic is utterly retarded, I have no idea why you are defending it

Also regarding pure defense stacking, PoE is also the worst aRPG in this area. In D3 you can almost go pure glass cannon and be viable, and you can do the same in TL2, for the reasons I have outlined earlier

Honestly making MR stack with diminishing returns is the nicest way to solve this problem. That way, you can still continuously stick MR if you want to, and your return are still good (going from 80 resist to 82 resist is a ridiculous jump), but it would definitely equalize the amount of MR that characters can get. The difference between a character fully going MR might be 80%, and doing a decent amount of MR might be 70%, instead of now which would be something like -30% all the way to 88%

You cannot go pure glass cannon in D3 please don't make shit up. The top builds in D3 involve perma freezing everything to death, being completely immune to everything and spinning around in a circle with massive life leech and aoe damage and similar builds.

You can't "cap" resist in D3 but people play it exactly the same way they do any other ARPG. Do the bare min (600 all resist) or stack as much as possible.

You can state that resist might be a bad mechanic in arpgs, but everyone needs to stop making up shit that is completely untrue when compared to OTHER arpgs.

D3 resists have decreasing returns. PoE resists have increasing returns until they have zero returns. Increasing returns are bad.

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D3 resists have decreasing returns. PoE resists have increasing returns until they have zero returns. Increasing returns are bad.

If your going to debate whatever system is superior in gear progression then that's another story, PoE resist requires you to get to X and then your free to do whatever. D3 you still have to stack a large amount and then better gear would allow you to get more powerful then the average person.

The only real difference is other then personal opinion is that allows for a higher gear floor for gear to get better, so the only real reason to switch to D3 system if we wanted larger end game progression.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

You cannot go pure glass cannon in D3 please don't make shit up, the affixes like molten-plague/arcane sentry/mortar one shots you even easier then they do in PoE if your squishy, there was countless nerfs to monster in inferno mode in D3 and you still need to stack multitudes of resists just to complete the game. The top builds in D3 involve perma freezing everything to death, being completely immune to everything and spinning around in a circle with massive life leech and aoe damage and similar builds.

Please don't go make strawman, I didn't say pure, I said almost, and btw, you can easily play almost glass cannon, particularly if you play someone like Monk

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RagnarokChu wrote:

You can't "cap" resist in D3 but people play it exactly the same way they do any other ARPG. Do the bare min (600 all resist) or stack as much as possible.

There are plenty of people doing D3 with much less than 600 resist, I personally have 200. I have yet to see anyone successful doing maps with 0% MR in PoE

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RagnarokChu wrote:

You can state that resist might be a bad mechanic in arpgs, but everyone needs to stop making up shit that is completely untrue when compared to OTHER arpgs.

You can put yourself in that group of people

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RagnarokChu wrote:

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D3 resists have decreasing returns. PoE resists have increasing returns until they have zero returns. Increasing returns are bad.

If your going to debate whatever system is superior in gear progression then that's another story, PoE resist requires you to get to X and then your free to do whatever. D3 you still have to stack a large amount and then better gear would allow you to get more powerful then the average person.

The only real difference is other then personal opinion is that allows for a higher gear floor for gear to get better, so the only real reason to switch to D3 system if we wanted larger end game progression.

That's not really accurate. If you have a PoE-like system, there is effectively zero room for you to be, say, strong to one element and weak to another. If you're not at capped resists, you are at dangerously low resists because any small deviation from the cap causes a huge deviation in damage taken.

These systems behave completely differently in response to small changes in resistance stat.

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syrioforel wrote:

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RagnarokChu wrote:

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D3 resists have decreasing returns. PoE resists have increasing returns until they have zero returns. Increasing returns are bad.

If your going to debate whatever system is superior in gear progression then that's another story, PoE resist requires you to get to X and then your free to do whatever. D3 you still have to stack a large amount and then better gear would allow you to get more powerful then the average person.

The only real difference is other then personal opinion is that allows for a higher gear floor for gear to get better, so the only real reason to switch to D3 system if we wanted larger end game progression.

That's not really accurate. If you have a PoE-like system, there is effectively zero room for you to be, say, strong to one element and weak to another. If you're not at capped resists, you are at dangerously low resists because any small deviation from the cap causes a huge deviation in damage taken.

These systems behave completely differently in response to small changes in resistance stat.

Im not sure why you are arguing with him, he always ignores the specifics on purpose by handwaving them and doing overgeneralized comparisons

EDIT: Also its the hardcore players in D3 that try to achieve max cap and tankiness (which is understandable). If you are not hardcore in D3, you can easily play with 200-300 resists, I do so myself

In PoE, try doing maps with 0% MR (which would probably be the equivalent) in standard, and tell me how you go

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deteego wrote:

Im not sure why you are arguing with him, he always ignores the specifics on purpose by handwaving them and doing overgeneralized comparisons

Yeah, I'm done at this point.

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deteego wrote:

There are many reasons why behind this

#1 that unlike ever other aRPG , PoE has mechanics that severely punish you the less health you have. Stuns happen more often the less health you have, status effects (shock,freeze,burning) last longer the less health, etc etc. This basically makes health a lot more valuable in PoE compared to any other comparable aRPG, where some status side effect (lets say being frozen) is static, regardless of how much health you have

Burn isnt affected by your HP in any way... And with certain gear/build/passives, most other "mechanics" can be avoided, and in that case, damage will matter no less than life.

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deteego wrote:

#2 GGG just did the "copy every other aRPG" mechanic, and they increased difficulty by just increased mob health/damage by ridiculous amounts, instead of doing something more innovative like improving mod AI. Like I said, pretty much every comparable aRPG does this, but when combined with #1, it just makes things that much worse

#3. Negative resistances in higher difficulty levels. This was presumably done so people had a reason to stack resistances, but all its done is force everyone to cap resistances, this has nothing to do with life, until we get to #4

#4. End game bosses do ridiculous amounts of elemental damage. The reason why this is is because of the elemental damage formula. Long story short, the more MR you have, the even more effective it gets at reducing damage. For example, the jump from 0-50% MR is just as strong (in the damage reduced) as the jump from 50-75%. This left GGG in a peculiar position to balance elemental damage. On the one hand, if GGG wanted to improve build diversity (i.e. not forcing everyone to stack MR) they would lower elemental damage done by end game bosses. The problem with this however, is that anyone that would stack MR would be almost immune to boss fights, particularly piety and dominus. So we have the the current position where elemental damage is through the roof, so boss fights wouldn't be trivial for the characters that stack 75% MF, and go above that. Which gets to #5. Also this is a reason why curses, as well as penetration, are pretty much mandatory on elemental damage users, because dropping a monsters MR has a huge impact in how much damage you deal, particularly if the monster is already sitting on high MR (i.e. resists elemental damage mod)

Well, they culd just support certain boss spells with penetration gems, so resistances wouldnt have such an impact. Actually, when map has -max res mods, elemental damage becames just ridiculous and unsurvivable.

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deteego wrote:

#5. In order to deal with the ridiculous elemental damage, you need a massive HP pool as a buffer. You can easily get oneshot in later maps if you have below 3k health, even if your MR is capped at 75%. Another option is to increase MR, but that isn't possible for every build (similar reason why safrells/aegis shield builds are so popular now is because of #4)

Reasons 1-5 is why PoE is still path of life nodes, its becoming more and more apparent that in order to fix this problem, GGG would have to do some pretty severe changes, including possibly changed how elemental damage is calculated

Actually, there is another, quite important reason - your life regen and life leech both are based on maximum HP. Furthermore, since potions stop healing at full life, you need a large HP pool to use them effectively.
And the last, but most important reason - you just CANT get %increased life from items. You can get it ONLY through your passives. On the other hand, damage can be gained through gear and gems. If one will put nodes into damage too, he will be unable to get enough life. If rare items could roll "X% increased maximum life"... Then Path of Life Nodes existed no longer.
Just compare Life to Energy Shield. Energy Shield has much higher base values from gear, has implicit %increased maximum ES" from INT, plus "%increased max ES" can be gained though items (not much, but still). Also, potions cant regen ES and ES users after take VP to leech instantly, they also use items/passives to avoid stun (sometimes - even freeze). With all that, there is no "Path of ES" in game. You still CAN deeply invest into ES, if you want be tanking ES hulk, or you can invest into damage, to make glasscannon - choice is yours.

P.S. That's why i dont play life builds anymore.

P.S.S lets dont forget desyncs and death penalties. Life leech glasscannon with VP can be invincible with decent HP pool (enough to avois oneshot), but when desyncs comes to play, it easily kills you there, and no one want to die (even sofcore players), because 1 death kills whole day of experience farming. Remove desync - and pyers wont be forced to have as many HP as before.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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deteego wrote:

There are many reasons why behind this

#1 that unlike ever other aRPG , PoE has mechanics that severely punish you the less health you have. Stuns happen more often the less health you have, status effects (shock,freeze,burning) last longer the less health, etc etc. This basically makes health a lot more valuable in PoE compared to any other comparable aRPG, where some status side effect (lets say being frozen) is static, regardless of how much health you have

Burn isnt affected by your HP in any way... And with certain gear/build/passives, most other "mechanics" can be avoided, and in that case, damage will matter no less than life.

And other aRPGS also have these mechanics, so overall you are still worse off in PoE. PoE isn't the only game that gives you resistance's to elemental damage

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deteego wrote:

And other aRPGS also have these mechanics, so overall you are still worse off in PoE. PoE isn't the only game that gives you resistance's to elemental damage

What is your point there??