Convince me why Armor + Iron reflexes beats acrobatics.

"

JohnNamikaze wrote:

"

Erasure wrote:

This is simply not true. Blocked damage still counts towards the proc, spells also count towards it.

I have no problem maintaining endurance charges as an acrobatics/block ranger.

Meant to say if you pull of the specs with pure Evasion w/o block, you will rarely ever trigger CoDT. Should had corrected the poster I quoted too.

Edit: Still, I am not 100% sure about it, but I know w/o block it definitely is difficult to trigger CoDT.

Evasion and dodge take place before block, so even if blocked damage counts it wouldn't matter. You'd have to rely on spell damage to process Cast on Damage Taken.

"

ciel289 wrote:

the biggest drawback for me with acrobatics is you will have way to many green sockets

This is understated. The currency cost with Acrobatics is somewhat larger for some builds, because their gems (WED, Reduce Mana, LL, Crit, increased area, etc.) blue/red dominant.

"

reboticon wrote:

No. I mean Iron Reflexes + Blind - Unwavering Stance is better than Acrobatics.

Leaning towards ">" as well - due to the fact that Blind confers 75% less chance to hit to everyone, including summoned skeletons and whatnot. Been very useful for other characters I've played. Still planning to take Acro though with my current Nemesis girl to test the null hypothesis, however.

"

CookieVortex wrote:

It's all about the build.

This.

Also, both IR and Acrobatics need to be measured against the default mode, where armour gear gives you armour and eva gear gives evasion.

I think for a lot of characters, even those that take a lot of physical melee hits, IR is a bad choice because you'd actually get better defences overall by wearing say 75% armour and 25% evasion gear, and even if you hate eva as a defence and only care about Armour, the points you spend travelling to the IR node might be better spent on passives that boost Armour directly.

Acrobatics is a bit different because it doesn't do any conversion - it's a clear power-up for someone with no armour or ES (whereas IR is irrelevant for someone with no eva). It also can't be so easily compared to simply getting more eva nodes, as dodge is a different kind of defence to evasion. I think it becomes worth getting if your build goes near it anyway and your armour/ES is naturally below a certain level, because 40% dodge and 30% spell dodge is huge (even just 30% dodge is a big deal if you can't spare the points for the rest). But that doesn't mean Acrobatics + pure eva is better than Acrobatics + hybrid gear. You certainly don't *need* to wear pure eva gear with Acrobatics if you are struggling for red gem sockets, especially if you run Grace aura (which makes up for bad eva rolls on gear to some extent) or happen to have a decent amount of eva passives. Even on an Acrobatics build, there are limits to how much benefit you can derive from stacking lots of Evasion.

block > armor

im running around with only 4k armor.. well when i see that with 8k armor i only have 10% or so mor reduction.. well waste of points

but 73/70 block beats any kind of armor.. because i hardly get beaten or hit by enemies..
and if (takes some time till someone hits me, even in groups of 10-15 mobs) the usual 2x cwdt gems with molten and endurance cry and all the shit kick in..

max block is far superior to any form of armor or evasion ar acrobatic stuff

u can kamikaze jump in any crowd and nothings happening.. just the mobs get fried and shocked..

"

krassi3000 wrote:

max block is far superior to any form of armor or evasion ar acrobatic stuff

There's nothing to stop you taking Acrobatics on top of blocking, if you're in the right part of the tree (possible as the Shadow and Ranger areas have a decent amount of blocking nodes).

"

Ouroboros226 wrote:

So what am I missing?

Let me know when you dodge a Rhoa charge/shield charge/EK/bear trap/phys reflect.

"

Incompetent wrote:

"

CookieVortex wrote:

It's all about the build.

This.

Also, both IR and Acrobatics need to be measured against the default mode, where armour gear gives you armour and eva gear gives evasion.

I think for a lot of characters, even those that take a lot of physical melee hits, IR is a bad choice because you'd actually get better defences overall by wearing say 75% armour and 25% evasion gear, and even if you hate eva as a defence and only care about Armour, the points you spend travelling to the IR node might be better spent on passives that boost Armour directly.

There's this thing called Grace, when you find something equally strong for armor then let me know and we'll talk about how IR is a bad choice.

yup its true, bear trap and EK and those constructs CAN hit you like a truck. they're spells that do physical damage. you can avoid bear traps/construct projectiles pretty easily however, by you know...moving. EK you can just pop a granite/chaos flask and keep going as long as you have some life leech or something. but they're spells not attacks so having that spell dodge and some spell block would be beneficial.

shield bash/rhoa charge can be evaded dodged and blocked. i constantly just stand there letting them run at me and never take damage.

people saying oh i can just use blind - true...but so can evasion characters you know. don't act like things apply to one without the other.

"

Inhuman_Soul wrote:

Actually, evasion has a built-in anti-crit mechanic (source), so I'd actually say evasion is probably the best extra defense for that kind of build. However, as others pointed out, builds using RT, Lioneye's or spells is not very evasion-friendly in the presence of reflect.

this does work versus mob crits but it does not apply to your reflected critical hit damage, since on reflect it isn't "critting" you but merely reflecting your larger damage from a critical strike.



so lets sum some things up:
Myths about evasion - once you do get hit you get destroyed. this is not true. i have yet to be one shot by anything in the game and i do NOT play safely. i literally facetank everything without a care for dying.
keep in mind you're evasion based, you will not get hit often. what does that mean? it means you may not get hit for a couple map runs...AT ALL. if you do get hit you're definitely not getting hit by the same thing again before it dead, because unlike some of these tests convey we're not just standing around letting stuff beat on us for 30 seconds to see how often we get hit and how much damage we take. if you're taking damage for 30 seconds, i could agree armor/IR is better. as evasion if you do get hit it'll be dead before it can hit you again, period.

the disadvantages of evasion based are physical damage spells. this is minimized by spell dodge/block, granite flasks and endurance charges just as armor/IR uses them as well. this includes bear trap, ethereal knives, and those new bubble poppers in sceptre of god.
second disadvantage is that one rogue elite that uses LA. either he has a lioneye's glare or resolute technique meaning you can only dodge or block. one time he hit me 3 times in a row and i died. it was the first and only time i've been hit twice in a row, let alone three. against him it comes down to RNG.

advantages. you can forget about all ranged attacks...they don't exist to you. this includes titty gunners (arctic armour? don't need it), the new titty gunner like animals, those spike on death guys, all arrow shooters except poison arrow (they still explode when they miss), and crabs...etc.
you can forget about stunlock. you do not get hit often enough to get stunlock meaning you do not need to gear for it, or spec for it.
you will basically never take critical damage. evasion is rolled twice, once for a hit, once for a critical...blah blah math involved you won't take critical hit damage.
you basically never get hit physically meaning you won't ever take bleed damage. since i build my character even while leveling i've taken bleed LITERALLY twice. i died to it once because it took me by surprise i didn't know what was going on.
when you get hit, you will not get hit again until the thing is dead - physically.

Personal Experience: i made a blender up to level 73 and i kept dying because i kept taking too much damage with no instant life leech to replenish it back. even with life gain on hit i would always eventually die in maps like cowards trial or vs danger bosses.
i made a new 'blender' concept but based off evasion and dodge. same gear used and i see much much less damage. much lower death count also. when i do get hit i obviously get hit harder, but i can leech back my hp to full before im hit again guaranteed.

though my personal experience won't sell you, it definitely sold me. every character i make will be evasion and/or block based from here on out, period.

Evasion and acro ain't bad (with high health). My friend is acro and all evasion and does mostly fine...

I say mostly because while hes smart about using movement and his ranged attacks to take as few physical hits as possible, he thinks his spell dodge means he can ignore resistances. Good thing he's on standard so I can berate/laugh at him everytime he dies to spell damage. Can't fault him otherwise.

I am thinking of doing something similar to my friends build someday. Except with real resistances and hp since I can't always rely on chance and positioning to dodge every attack or spell.

"

JunKx wrote:

Spoiler

yup its true, bear trap and EK and those constructs CAN hit you like a truck. they're spells that do physical damage. you can avoid bear traps/construct projectiles pretty easily however, by you know...moving. EK you can just pop a granite/chaos flask and keep going as long as you have some life leech or something. but they're spells not attacks so having that spell dodge and some spell block would be beneficial.

shield bash/rhoa charge can be evaded dodged and blocked. i constantly just stand there letting them run at me and never take damage.

people saying oh i can just use blind - true...but so can evasion characters you know. don't act like things apply to one without the other.

"

Inhuman_Soul wrote:

Actually, evasion has a built-in anti-crit mechanic (source), so I'd actually say evasion is probably the best extra defense for that kind of build. However, as others pointed out, builds using RT, Lioneye's or spells is not very evasion-friendly in the presence of reflect.

this does work versus mob crits but it does not apply to your reflected critical hit damage, since on reflect it isn't "critting" you but merely reflecting your larger damage from a critical strike.



so lets sum some things up:
Myths about evasion - once you do get hit you get destroyed. this is not true. i have yet to be one shot by anything in the game and i do NOT play safely. i literally facetank everything without a care for dying.
keep in mind you're evasion based, you will not get hit often. what does that mean? it means you may not get hit for a couple map runs...AT ALL. if you do get hit you're definitely not getting hit by the same thing again before it dead, because unlike some of these tests convey we're not just standing around letting stuff beat on us for 30 seconds to see how often we get hit and how much damage we take. if you're taking damage for 30 seconds, i could agree armor/IR is better. as evasion if you do get hit it'll be dead before it can hit you again, period.

the disadvantages of evasion based are physical damage spells. this is minimized by spell dodge/block, granite flasks and endurance charges just as armor/IR uses them as well. this includes bear trap, ethereal knives, and those new bubble poppers in sceptre of god.
second disadvantage is that one rogue elite that uses LA. either he has a lioneye's glare or resolute technique meaning you can only dodge or block. one time he hit me 3 times in a row and i died. it was the first and only time i've been hit twice in a row, let alone three. against him it comes down to RNG.

advantages. you can forget about all ranged attacks...they don't exist to you. this includes titty gunners (arctic armour? don't need it), the new titty gunner like animals, those spike on death guys, all arrow shooters except poison arrow (they still explode when they miss), and crabs...etc.
you can forget about stunlock. you do not get hit often enough to get stunlock meaning you do not need to gear for it, or spec for it.
you will basically never take critical damage. evasion is rolled twice, once for a hit, once for a critical...blah blah math involved you won't take critical hit damage.
you basically never get hit physically meaning you won't ever take bleed damage. since i build my character even while leveling i've taken bleed LITERALLY twice. i died to it once because it took me by surprise i didn't know what was going on.
when you get hit, you will not get hit again until the thing is dead - physically.

Personal Experience: i made a blender up to level 73 and i kept dying because i kept taking too much damage with no instant life leech to replenish it back. even with life gain on hit i would always eventually die in maps like cowards trial or vs danger bosses.
i made a new 'blender' concept but based off evasion and dodge. same gear used and i see much much less damage. much lower death count also. when i do get hit i obviously get hit harder, but i can leech back my hp to full before im hit again guaranteed.

though my personal experience won't sell you, it definitely sold me. every character i make will be evasion and/or block based from here on out, period.

Out of curiosity have you ever been hit by a collonade kole with + max damage? If evasion works for you, then of course, keep using it, but I happen to believe most of what is saving you is BLOCK, which is insanely good and very under appreciated. There is a reason I use crest of Perandus up until I get an Aegis.