Jay Wilsons list of Diablo 2 flaws

"

Avireyn wrote:

For example: I never cared nor needed to care that some players cheated in D2 (jsp et. al.). I could play the game perfectly fine on my own computer, I could mod it, I could play it on LANs. Perfect, lemony goodness.

In D3, Blizzard made cheating a gameplay mechanic (personal opinion, yours may differ), and prevention of hackers/piracy went from a problem for the company to a problem for the customer.

"

lethal_papercut wrote:

I share your sentiments that it feels like Blizz made a 3rd party problem a problem for everyone but then I remember that noone actually forces you to use the AH/RMAH. Yes they made it far too easy & with that big shiny 'Auction House' button sat right there it's too tempting for the weak willed to not use. Saying "they made it too easy to use the AH" is fair comment but when you make that statement also bear in mind you are saying "I cannot control myself from using the AH" at the same time.

I am only going to speak from my experience when I played the game months ago. As I moved up the difficulties 2 things became apparent....1)equipment was super linear and uninteresting so finding it was not fun and 2) My equipment became increasingly inadequate when I only used what I found.

Of course anyone can argue that I player does not need to use the AH's but when your not having fun finding your own stuff AND your not progressing your choices appear to be pushing you to use the feature. For me D3 was about getting as far as your could and it was fun to spend some gold to increase your characters power. This was on purpose by design. No one should blame the player for using the AH's they were not really made to be optional because the game was built around them. Optional would have been if D2 magically right now had a gold AH. It would be more fun in D2 (IMO) to find your own stuff or maybe trade with other players that you meet. I really think that most people do not enjoy using the AH's, People like myself complained as stareing at the screen and said that it doesn't really feel like your playing D3 but a Diablo tycoon AH simulator or whatever.

I'm going to chime in regarding the GAH here too. Naturally I ignored the RMAH, although it was fun to see how little value in-game gold has once you make the conversion.

I tried to ignore the GAH too. But this is what happened, even very early on in the game: I killed stuff, I got gold. I went to town, and found out that there wasn't diddly or squat for sale in town. Sure, I could upgrade the blacksmith and did, almost compulsively despite being fairly dissatisfied with what he had to offer, but that was it.

I was sitting on around 15k gold and literally had nothing to spend it on.

So of course I checked out the GAH. Lo and behold, I could suddenly kit myself out quite nicely with the gear on offer.

This was really disheartening. Sure, you could view the GAH as an extension of what we all used to do in D1 and D2 (save up, go see what Gris/Wirt/Charsi had for sale), but it still detracted from the experience for me. It still said, 'hey, you ARE going to use our Auction House whether you want to or not'. Because as much as I love playing pure and iron-man and all that, having so much gold and shit-all to spend it on really bothers me.

The item progression was tragic enough as it was.

So I do not believe the GAH is all that optional. Not given how poorly stocked the npcs are, at least at the beginning of the game (where I would argue decent stock in npc stores is very important).

"

lethal_papercut wrote:

"

Avireyn wrote:

For example: I never cared nor needed to care that some players cheated in D2 (jsp et. al.). I could play the game perfectly fine on my own computer, I could mod it, I could play it on LANs. Perfect, lemony goodness.

In D3, Blizzard made cheating a gameplay mechanic (personal opinion, yours may differ), and prevention of hackers/piracy went from a problem for the company to a problem for the customer.

I share your sentiments that it feels like Blizz made a 3rd party problem a problem for everyone but then I remember that noone actually forces you to use the AH/RMAH. Yes they made it far too easy & with that big shiny 'Auction House' button sat right there it's too tempting for the weak willed to not use. Saying "they made it too easy to use the AH" is fair comment but when you make that statement also bear in mind you are saying "I cannot control myself from using the AH" at the same time.

Avireyn, if you had played D3 with no use of the AH then you would be in exactly the same situation as you were with D2. The Botters would no affect you and the issue would be irrelevant. But I am guessing you like me went straight to the AH on day1 & bought pretty much every upgrade we could until we couldn't afford any more(?). I had a blast using the AH but when all was said & done I realised I had cheated myself out of hours of gameplay trying to find my own gear. I was only looking for really great items & every piece of gear I was wearing was from the AH. I realised that while Blizz are like a crack dealer in your living room I am the chump that said yes & fired up the pipe.
Start again & don't use the AH would be good advice but I think for all of us who used it before then the game has already been spoiled somewhat. Maybe if you leave it some time before playing again & start over you might feel different, but then when you do look on the AH you are gonna see insane items for really cheap & you are gonna have to decide what is more important to you.

Blizz are guilty of making the AH too in your face but we are the suckers for using it.

I feel I have to point this out: I am not your typical D3 player. I have only played through the game twice. One time with a Monk on normal. I was so... disappointed by the game that I left it right there. I then marshalled my strength and tried out a second play through a few weeks later with a Hunter. Was even worse.
The drops were still bad, but normal was so easy that it really didn't matter. So no, no AH use for me at all. I have to admit, I don't even have a clue on how to access it. I dropped out of D3 long before I could form an informed opinion on the viability of playing 'self-found'.
But I did notice the drops, and if you're still partly in Act I things or totally mismatched gear (bar weapon, which I luckily crafted, iirc) when you drill Diablo's head into the nearest floor... something isn't really right.
I had a few friends play the game farther, and Hell was when the last 'resistance' against the AH crumbled. Simply because nobody had the inclination to hope for days and weeks for random drops when so many so good items were at their fingertips for a pittance.

To me, it felt very much like: "Why should I frustrate myself at this glitched boss for probably days, when I just can type in iddqd and be on my merry way?" As we both said: Like a cheat. And it's integrated into the very core game as a revenue path for Blizzard.
Others claim that they had no problem playing 'self-found' all the way through to Infernoablo. But, from what I heard and read, I find that very unlikely. The drop system very much elicited the impression in me that consulting the AH, if only to supplement one's items, was very much wanted and planned for by design. But as said, that's not substantiated, that's merely the feeling I soaked up through my fingertips.


And regardless if I am personally affected or not: To put such a mechanic into a game is, for me, "not getting" what the whole game is about in the first place. It's an MMORPG mechanic that might work there, but it doesn't work for a Diablo. Or a Torchlight. Or a PoE.

Concerning the botters: I doubt that all those items up on jsp were botted. Sure, there were pindlebots and whathaveyou. But in the masses in which you could (apparently, I never tried it out. As I said, I'm a self-found man to the bone) just buy Zods off the 3rd party sites, I'd at least surmise there must have been a lot of dupes going on.
The difference D2 to D3 in that respect is that in D2, it really did not matter to me. It was another game altogether, as far as I was concerned.
In D3, it is my concern and problem. Because the measures set into place to counter these dupers, hackers and botters impinge on things I liked about D2: D3 cannot be modded. D3 cannot be played over LAN. D3 can never be played with anything less than a very decent internet connection, particularly hardcore. It's much more restrictive than D2.

I know this post does not add much to the conversation but god damn do those comments by Jay Wilson really offend me. Does he know how many people were still playing D2 up until the release of D3 and are still playing it?

Not once did I ever in my countless hours of D2 did I find Deckard Cain annoying. This is not even the whole thing, how can he just make so many assumptions?

"

Lionguild wrote:

I know this post does not add much to the conversation but god damn do those comments by Jay Wilson really offend me. Does he know how many people were still playing D2 up until the release of D3 and are still playing it?

Not once did I ever in my countless hours of D2 did I find Deckard Cain annoying. This is not even the whole thing, how can he just make so many assumptions?

I have the distinct feeling that Wilson is a "stop having fun!" guy. That's a type of player that will scream and yell at you if you play (or, Mother Mercy, enjoy) a game in a way he doesn't approve of:
"Noooo, you can't load your Dwarven Shotgonne with smaller guns!"
"You're playing ALL WRONG! You cannot have weapon proficiencies in small critters!"
"No, no, no! This is NOT a dark, depressing place, never was. In MY imagination, that means in Reality, this was always rainbows and poppycock! No, I don't know what poppycock is, but I'm sure you are not allowed to 'combine it with the elf chick'!"
"No, you cannot attach one scope per barrel and combine the attack boni. It's a mini-gun!"
"Wrath of Khan? What a load of horse manure! Worst! Film! EVER! You're remembering it all wrong! You will now watch Nemesis, and you will like it! Because THAT's how Star Trek is supposed to be!"
"For gods sake, stop getting your freak on with every prostitute in sight with your 'vulnerable to disease' elf. You are not allowed to make yourself into a bioweapon, even if the rules allow it!"

...And don't you dare backstab that peasant with a ballista.

"

Avireyn wrote:

"

Lionguild wrote:

I know this post does not add much to the conversation but god damn do those comments by Jay Wilson really offend me. Does he know how many people were still playing D2 up until the release of D3 and are still playing it?

Not once did I ever in my countless hours of D2 did I find Deckard Cain annoying. This is not even the whole thing, how can he just make so many assumptions?

I have the distinct feeling that Wilson is a "stop having fun!" guy. That's a type of player that will scream and yell at you if you play (or, Mother Mercy, enjoy) a game in a way he doesn't approve of:
"Noooo, you can't load your Dwarven Shotgonne with smaller guns!"
"You're playing ALL WRONG! You cannot have weapon proficiencies in small critters!"
"No, no, no! This is NOT a dark, depressing place, never was. In MY imagination, that means in Reality, this was always rainbows and poppycock! No, I don't know what poppycock is, but I'm sure you are not allowed to 'combine it with the elf chick'!"
"No, you cannot attach one scope per barrel and combine the attack boni. It's a mini-gun!"
"Wrath of Khan? What a load of horse manure! Worst! Film! EVER! You're remembering it all wrong! You will now watch Nemesis, and you will like it! Because THAT's how Star Trek is supposed to be!"
"For gods sake, stop getting your freak on with every prostitute in sight with your 'vulnerable to disease' elf. You are not allowed to make yourself into a bioweapon, even if the rules allow it!"

...And don't you dare backstab that peasant with a ballista.

Hilarious!

For the record, I dun think Jay Wilson's famous smirk makes things any better. =^[.]^=

"

Avireyn wrote:

"

Lionguild wrote:

I know this post does not add much to the conversation but god damn do those comments by Jay Wilson really offend me. Does he know how many people were still playing D2 up until the release of D3 and are still playing it?

Not once did I ever in my countless hours of D2 did I find Deckard Cain annoying. This is not even the whole thing, how can he just make so many assumptions?

I have the distinct feeling that Wilson is a "stop having fun!" guy. That's a type of player that will scream and yell at you if you play (or, Mother Mercy, enjoy) a game in a way he doesn't approve of:
"Noooo, you can't load your Dwarven Shotgonne with smaller guns!"
"You're playing ALL WRONG! You cannot have weapon proficiencies in small critters!"
"No, no, no! This is NOT a dark, depressing place, never was. In MY imagination, that means in Reality, this was always rainbows and poppycock! No, I don't know what poppycock is, but I'm sure you are not allowed to 'combine it with the elf chick'!"
"No, you cannot attach one scope per barrel and combine the attack boni. It's a mini-gun!"
"Wrath of Khan? What a load of horse manure! Worst! Film! EVER! You're remembering it all wrong! You will now watch Nemesis, and you will like it! Because THAT's how Star Trek is supposed to be!"
"For gods sake, stop getting your freak on with every prostitute in sight with your 'vulnerable to disease' elf. You are not allowed to make yourself into a bioweapon, even if the rules allow it!"

...And don't you dare backstab that peasant with a ballista.

Jay Wilson 0 - 1 Avireyn

I think Wilson was right when talking about the gameplay stuff, but the rest is pretty subjective.

"

Avireyn wrote:

"

Lionguild wrote:

I know this post does not add much to the conversation but god damn do those comments by Jay Wilson really offend me. Does he know how many people were still playing D2 up until the release of D3 and are still playing it?

Not once did I ever in my countless hours of D2 did I find Deckard Cain annoying. This is not even the whole thing, how can he just make so many assumptions?

I have the distinct feeling that Wilson is a "stop having fun!" guy. That's a type of player that will scream and yell at you if you play (or, Mother Mercy, enjoy) a game in a way he doesn't approve of:
"Noooo, you can't load your Dwarven Shotgonne with smaller guns!"
"You're playing ALL WRONG! You cannot have weapon proficiencies in small critters!"
"No, no, no! This is NOT a dark, depressing place, never was. In MY imagination, that means in Reality, this was always rainbows and poppycock! No, I don't know what poppycock is, but I'm sure you are not allowed to 'combine it with the elf chick'!"
"No, you cannot attach one scope per barrel and combine the attack boni. It's a mini-gun!"
"Wrath of Khan? What a load of horse manure! Worst! Film! EVER! You're remembering it all wrong! You will now watch Nemesis, and you will like it! Because THAT's how Star Trek is supposed to be!"
"For gods sake, stop getting your freak on with every prostitute in sight with your 'vulnerable to disease' elf. You are not allowed to make yourself into a bioweapon, even if the rules allow it!"

...And don't you dare backstab that peasant with a ballista.

Yes. This. Very much this. I'm not sure I'd call it 'don't have fun!' so much as 'that's not fun!'.

And the moment a game developer starts declaring what is fun and what isn't and makes severe design decisions around that, it's time to look for other things to do.