The trick to making a good Evasion character is to stay the fuck away from the ranger's portion of the skill tree. Then you'll understand that Evasion is actually very strong, it's just that wasted nodes suck, Strength is awesome, and just because you can evade things doesn't mean you don't need a shitload of Life.
The EV/Life nodes need buffing. The only thing "wrong" with the ranger side is lack of flat life, up until this patch it has had "better" access to Increased HP, enough to close or eliminate the gap with a Str build. I've mathed it, several times.
Anyway, Hybrid EV/AR technically has the bets potential Armour with IR, but good luck with those rolls. And Grace is far far inferior to determination for increasing armour if you have actual gear, it's worth ~20% more armour (in an average to best case) vs the 50% of Determination.
People here are bad at maths I swear.
Do you include yourself in that statement? :)
"
Autocthon wrote:
I concede to your superior mathing with the caveat that in reality you're looking for specific colors of sockets in specific numbers and therefore it doesnt matter what the real probability is, all that matters is that its super low.
Because the quote above was about middle-school stuff.
Putting the ego rulers aside, it'd be nice if things were backed up with calculations somewhere.
Yes I can be bad at maths too, though considering NOBODY does probability right I don't consider that particularly egregious (I normally would do it right but stupid sockets).
I've done the calculations before patch in at LEAST 2 previous threads, so you could look up old EV threads. I didn't back them up when I switched laptops, so I don;t have a current copy anywhere but I can check to see if maybe one of the more recent copies was done on this machine.
Im looking for a build and i have seen that everyone that allocate pasive points more or less near Iron reflexes pick this keynode.
As far as i know it only allow you to use evasion or mix arm/ev gear instead of pure armor gear.
Why everyone pick it? (specially scions)
You cant be competitive only with pure armor gear?
I dont pick it, despite i have Unwavering Stance.
Why? Because i use ES as main defence, and i dont plan to equip any evasion gear. I just dont need it at all.
Physical damage? Reflect? Immortal call, and i laugh while killing them! Why would i need such crap as armour or evasion?
With gear like this you don't need IR and you can pick up some of the better pure armour nodes, but while getting equipped IR is a good temporary fix, it just makes it easier to gear.
Now that there are EV pots, and grace is buffed, you can make an even stronger EVA char, with both pure choices being stronger then hybrids or IR hybrids imo.
What needs to happen with evasion is a general boost to the life nodes and life in that area as well as introducing options that can restore chunks of life, like a heal on cooldown and a higher tier of flasks, since the current tier of flasks date back to CB.
Evasion should work by avoiding damage, than taking damage and either go out of combat or quickly refill that loss of life. Currently the game does not provide this for evasion as well as that mostly the life pool is too low, that did however get boosted last patch.
This is a myth. It is a lie. It is misinformation propagated by players who have never bothered to even consider evasion as halfway to viable, let alone take the time to verify their beliefs.
Splitting the tree down the middle and getting only life nodes,
Right Side has +308% Life and 605 max life at level 77 with 95 points spent.
Left side has +284% Life and 805 Max life at level 79 with 97 points spend.
This means that before equipment (which right side is scaling better with) they have respectively 2456 and 3091 health, favoring the left side by about 25%. Every piece of gear is then going to close this gap by 20% of the life on the gear, by 1000 bonus life it becomes 6548 and 6931 respectively. At that point there's a less than 10% gap in life total.
And that was splitting right down the middle, if the EV character branches into the STR side the gap is only going to narrow as they gain Str and other HP nodes. And the Dex character with that HP multiplier also managed a 150% EV multiplier (the STR chatracter has no AR multiplier in those points).
So please, tell us all again how hurting for life dex is, even though they have more efficient life clusters and a higher available multiplier. I even left the 24% out form the right half of the witch start.
"
The armour side of things should have better mitigation and be build around mitigation. Elemental adaptation and reduction physical damage, reduction of crit multiplier damage stuff like that should be abundant. With some crits obviously bypassing the evasion system and underlying life pool something similar should also be done for evasion.
Evasive characters should die from too many hits and mitigation should die from to large hits. This might sound counter intuitive, but as player you die by failing from playing the play style designated to you and what you choice.
If you die from 1 large hit as an evasion character the game is cheap and it is a stupid design, unless this is some pre-designed hit/ animation sequence. Think vaal slam, but than one you can properly evade by moving around.
The way I see a mitigation build fail is when too much damage and too high damage comes in and there is not enough regen to keep up. However design of armour makes big hits mostly bypass and there is hardly any monster or game mechanic in this game that can provide such death scenerio's.
The whole IR debacle should mostly be solved by my proposed formula changes to calculating the armour value, which gets bypassed permanently thus I will repost it once more:
Total Armour =
[ [ ARMOUR{500*(1+0.52+0.6+0.3+0.4)} +
ER{(530+Grace*IF)*(1+0.6+0.3+0.4)} ] ] *
(Determination*IF)
A half decent EV build doesn't die to one shots that wouldn't kill an armour character. They just have a more difficult gear barrier, making them seem less effective. It's not difficult to support EV in such a way as to reach 95%+ avoidance. at that point unless a hit kills your outright you're unlikely to ever die.
Edit @Xendran: Making EV more unreliable and more variable won't do anything to buff it. Like I said, easier to have IR turn the Dex bonus to evasion into a dex conversion of evasion to armour. That accomplishes what IR wants without requiring complex mechanics and without straight up nerfing it. You'll have a less effective DR in small fights and more in larger. While also having one shot mitigation
BAsically, for a half decent EV build you're recommendation is a straight nerf to the builds effectiveness once they take IR
But people tend to pick Iron reflexes with grace over pure armor with determination + free pasives, i think that its not only because its easies for them to gear the character :S
It's because Grace had flat cost and determination was 30% (or 40%? Can't remember). Also, If you don't have much armor, Determination isn't that good. Also, determination can still be used in conjunction WITH grace and IR.
All that doesn't really matter now when auras are 60%. To me, grace + IR looks like a no brainer now (over determination) if your builds takes you close to IR.
edit:
hybrid AR/EV gear = more options for sockets, arguably cheaper to buy, can yield more armor with IR (Bringer of Rain for example)
A level 20 grace gives us 2k evasion (so armor).
A level 20 determination gives us 50% of our armor, so, with 4200 armor (something that i think that its easily attainable) it gives us the same armor as grace. So, the more armor we get after these 4200, the better determination gets.
In fact, if we are a str user, it may be difficult to have enought dexterty to raise grace to level 20.
So, if we have no plan of running grace (with IR) + determination together (and having no mana at all), i dont see why to use Grace as a STR user and not spending these pasive points into more life nodes.
IGN: GiveMeEpix(i may be AFK) or
SpectralAxeThrower
PM me if i dont answer you
This is math from before 1.0.0, but it should still be valid, with the caveat that Jade flasks exist. Note that in the theoretical situation below a marauder can use Blind to reduce hits taken per second to just over 1 and quater damage taken per second to roughly equivalent to the EV character.
"
It's time for mathy funtime!
Marauder Build
Spoiler
Not my best build ever, but in all honesty life nodes suck on marauder side. Suck so hard.
Ranger Build
Spoiler
Probably overall better optimized than the marauder build, though considering how bad you think evasion is I suppose you think I really need every optimization possible not for EV to suck balls.
Let's put these builds side by side for comparison of defensive stats... (Each of them took HP/End Charge bandit rewards)
Marauder:Ranger
Base HP - 874:701
HP Multiplier - 180%:222%
Armour:EV - 95%:192%
End Charges - 7:5
Block - 20%:20%
Dodge - 0%:30%
So Ranger has a bit lower base HP, in exchange for higher multiplier (which will scale better with gear). Their block is equivalent, with the ranger getting roughly double the multiplier to EV that the Marauder gets to AR.
Now we'll assume middling-good gear.
All Armour pieces have +300 AR/EV, +70% Local AR/EV, +70 HP
We're not going to make the trivial assumption of Kaom's, because the game isn't balanced around one item (much as many players think it is. So what are their base AR/EV values and HP? We'll assume they have equivalent shields. We'll assume health bonus only in accessory slots (70/slot)
Marauder:Ranger
HP - 4015:4060
Defense - 20265:20285
Block - 54%:54%
Marauder is using Grace and Determination. Ranger is using Grace (determination optional for granites I suppose). Against average monsters their respective defenses (assuming enemy accuracy has been reduced about 20% from pre patch). We'll assume an average mob attacks 1.2 times per second and that they have an averave pack size of 10 mobs.
Marauder:Ranger
Block - 54%:54%+30% dodge
Defense - 90%:52%EV+20%DR
Damage Taken per hit - 80:640
Hits taken per second - 5.52:1.854
Damage taken per second - 441:1187
Note that cursory math shows that EV should have been reduced by between 10% and 40% across the level distribution, meaning that evasion rate is lower than it should be. Also note that the Marauder is hitting the DR cap. And sure enough the EV character is taking quite a bit more damage per second, admittedly they have considerably less effective mitigation given taht their evasion is only half the marauders DR.
But time for the magic to happen.
They both use a perfect enfeeble. The EV character uses a blinding attack to even the scales from the marauders two defensive auras.
Marauder:Ranger
Block - 54%:54%+30% Dodge
Defense - 90%:94.5%+20%DR
Damage Taken per Hit - 52.8:422.4
Hits Taken per second - 5.52:0.18
Damage taken per second - 292:74
Notice anuthing yet? Now to find the threshold for a single attack to kill either of these characters.
Marauder:Ranger
HP - 4015:4060
Threshold no ECharges/Enfeeble - 5703:4060
Threshold (no enfeeble) - 8555:5070
Threshold (enfeeble) - 12833:7690
The thresholds are for base damage on a hit before enfeeble (in both cases). In both cases the only mobs with physical damage that high are Kole/Vaal/Brutus. The threshold for the marauder is approximate. The chances of damage spiking that high against either of these characters outside of the uber phys damage bosses is pretty low.
Edit: On grace, it is actually quite good at addining defenses to a non IR armour build. In an IR build it is roughly equivelent to a "perfect" chest slot which would be 30-40% of total AR so... Quite good. Not as good as determination, but still very good.
IGN - PlutoChthon, Talvathir
Last edited by Autocthon#5515 on Oct 28, 2013, 7:31:24 PM
thats an interesting side by side comparison. couple more things to consider:
1) ranged damage. with ondar's guile that evasion ranger can basically ignore all ranged mobs until last because they just will not hit him where as marauder will still get hit as often as melee, and for just as much.
2) the above factor includes chaos damage, which probably 80% of chaos damage in the game is projectile
3) hits per second. its good to show and gives a slight idea of what would happen if they both AFK in front of mobs, but whites/blues are not lasting more than 1-1.5 seconds unless your damage absolutely sucks, or you're in a 6 man party.
this significantly boosts the rangers defense considering theres such a small chance to be hit the first roll and they likely won't get a second chance at hitting.
BASICALLY just as you're trying to show, and im adding to: evasion is more powerful than people give credit for.
this myth that armor is more reliable and all this crap is just nonsense that gets perpetuated throughout the forums without any knowledge or fact. hey look i saw some guy say armor is more reliable than evasion...hmm...sounds bout right i now believe it and will always take IR.
The thread I originally posted taht stuff in sadly got locked because of the constant vitriol of the creator >.>
And yep. Nobody every bothers to actually math EV teh yjus tassume it's RNG and unreliable and sucks. I say getting hit once in every 5 seconds is awesome (and want to combie that with ES plox)
thats an interesting side by side comparison. couple more things to consider:
1) ranged damage. with ondar's guile that evasion ranger can basically ignore all ranged mobs until last because they just will not hit him where as marauder will still get hit as often as melee, and for just as much.
2) the above factor includes chaos damage, which probably 80% of chaos damage in the game is projectile
3) hits per second. its good to show and gives a slight idea of what would happen if they both AFK in front of mobs, but whites/blues are not lasting more than 1-1.5 seconds unless your damage absolutely sucks, or you're in a 6 man party.
this significantly boosts the rangers defense considering theres such a small chance to be hit the first roll and they likely won't get a second chance at hitting.
BASICALLY just as you're trying to show, and im adding to: evasion is more powerful than people give credit for.
this myth that armor is more reliable and all this crap is just nonsense that gets perpetuated throughout the forums without any knowledge or fact. hey look i saw some guy say armor is more reliable than evasion...hmm...sounds bout right i now believe it and will always take IR.
well, when you compare 95% chance to evade (ondars, acrobatics) against armor, yes, 95% chance to evade is better but until you get to that point armor is better. And getting to 95% chance to evade is no small feat, especially for the newcomers etc. and they are the ones that usually ask "should I keep evasion or take IR" and they usually have 30-40% chance to evade at best, and that is a shitty chance to evade.
"Path of Exile be a online Action RPG set up in tha dark fantasy ghetto of Wraeclast. Well shiiiit..."
- Uzicorn, for teh children.
well, when you compare 95% chance to evade (ondars, acrobatics) against armor, yes, 95% chance to evade is better but until you get to that point armor is better. And getting to 95% chance to evade is no small feat, especially for the newcomers etc. and they are the ones that usually ask "should I keep evasion or take IR" and they usually have 30-40% chance to evade at best, and that is a shitty chance to evade.
Actually you get 95% evade independent of Acrobatics and after Acrobatics you have 97% avoidance, and you don't need 95% to be on par with armour. With Acrobatics armour and evade become equal relatively quickly (Acrobatics is to EV what ECharges are to Armour).
It takes 54% listed Evade to reach 95% effective evade chance. That's not hard.
54% Evade + 20qEnfeeble + Blind = 95% Evade
+Acrobatics = 97% Avoidance
+75% Block (yes you can do it) = 99.25% Avoidance
Evade gets crazy with multiple layers of high probability defense. Anything above 50% evade is workable even without Enfeeble or Blind (though they certainly help as you can see above).
And technically above I didn;t compare 95% evade to armour. I compared 50% evade to armour, and gave them both roughly equivalent tools to deal with their enemies.
Edit: Furthermore if youread it you;d see that both those characters are in exactly equivalent gear and there was NO stacking in favor of either defense.
IGN - PlutoChthon, Talvathir
Last edited by Autocthon#5515 on Oct 28, 2013, 8:24:39 PM
