Orb of Fusing and general currency problems

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StillSingle wrote:

If D1 or D2 only ever dropped 1-10 gold piece piles for the WHOLE game, how would that make you feel. That is the metaphor I am currently playing in POE. I get the same drops at the beginning all the way through to the end.

The way I see it the gold in D1 and D2 increased to meet the needs of the player. Orbs in POE don't need to increase more than they already are because there is no need to increase them for the player to progress. Getting your links for support gems isn't too hard and getting equipment of an acceptable level of power also isn't too hard so why should the game supply more orbs?

yeah inflation. Capitilism is based on inflation. Profits = inflation. The art of selling something for more than you bought it for = inflation.

Inflation is calculated on a base rate (I think I'm repeating a post I did earlier here). I am talking about changing the base "values", therefore inflation calculations are irellevent.

note: definately feel like I'm repeating this here...

currently each orb is valued based on the drop ratio GGG deems.

Utility does not equal drop ratio rarity at the moment according to never_nou. I'm not entirely in agreement with that, but it isn't too far off the mark.

I am not rewarded with more riches for doing higher level work. In capitalism you earn more for harder/more skilled work. This is not the case in POE.

remember, I am talking about changing the base ratio drops of all currency based on area difficulty level. This doesn't create inflation, it changes the entire economy to a new one (hence inflation calculations are meaningless).

If I found a way to constantly buy low and sell high within the same economy, THAT would be me creating inflation.

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Garr0t wrote:

Chisels and maps are end-game orbs, and they do not directly impact the gear economy because a chisel or a map does not directly tranlate to power (i.e. gear). It simply facilitates access to the opportunity/potential of getting end game gear. The probability of finding orbs is the same as the probability of a level one character in tidal flats (barring the impact of modifiers on quantity/quality, and obviously the itemlevel).

The reason why the drop rates for these is being tinkered with is because high level players are finding it difficult to retain access to these high level zones without resorting to grinding at lower levels and/or consuming a lot of their wealth. The erosion of wealth is too high.

More maps & more chisels = more quantity in areas where players do not have the level/currency burden, this means there are more items & orbs entering the economy than before. Therefore they do directly impact the gear economy, more orbs means more chances at getting the great gear.

Whatever the actual value that chisels were changed by is a direct increase in quantity & rarity. For every extra chisel found & used an extra 5%iiq/iir enters the system that wasn't there before.

More maps means more high level maps are being played. More ilvl70+ items are now being found due to the increased availablity of 69 maps & chisel use. I already picked up an ilvl71 chest for just 2chaos. I haven't even done a map over 62.

I agree this is starting to beat a dead horse, but the wealth accumulation at higher levels is represented by higher /itemlevel gear.

Biasing drop rates by difficulty level will create a tiered economy which potentially penalizes players that do not have the time/luck/build to be effective at whatever difficulty the line in the sand is drawn...

There will be a wealth disparity (over a longer period of time) because those that get in first will inflate the prices of gear in that difficulty, and new entrants on that difficulty will not be able to afford the gear to continue to progress.

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lethal_papercut wrote:

more orbs means more chances at getting the great gear.

But isn't this what the whole discussion is about?
Great gear is simply an alternate means of representing wealth. People at high level that can afford to roll in maps should be rewarded with great gear that should make them feel progress and/or be sold for orbs that they can hoard/use/etc. I don't believe it needs to correlated with biasing currency drop rates.

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lethal_papercut wrote:

I already picked up an ilvl71 chest for just 2chaos. I haven't even done a map over 62

I think this is great! It means accessibility! I don't have to be a rich mo-fo in order to hang with the ladder players. ;-)

I would just like to say that while I do feel drop rates could be adjusted from what they currently are I wouldn't be in support of the suggested more orbs by difficulty method.

I think I already made it pretty clear I would like to see more types of orbs specifically unique ones, so that should I find an ex at lvl20 I don't have to let it gather dust in my stash until I have regaled an ilvl71 chest with perfect stats to use it 'properly'.

Unique orbs like the mirror are 1 in a lifetime finds, a good carrot on a stick to keep grinding but why does there only have to be 1 type? Surely that's not the only acceptable unique orb that we can ever expect to see in POE? Even if I found a mirror I would sell it.

I do agree that ex/div/regal come along with just as much RNG as trans/aug/alts & they don't seem worth all the extra grind it takes to find them. It seems like rarity for rarity's sake & not because an ex is actually a super useful orb. It may be potentially very useful when you are balls deep into endgame but I do feel the rest of the game's experience suffers a little to much for it.

I'd much rather grind hoping to find some great unique orb rather than a chance to add 1 stat to my rare hat.


Edit: I forgot to mention that we are seeing new unique items added to the game frequently, these items are all new to the system & if they are decent items they can be traded for high level orbs. This is another case where the current economy is being added to & yet players don't ever seem to mention that it has an impact one way or the other. Mention making an ex less than a 2week grind & they bite your head off for destroying the concept of the game. Doesn't seem reasonable.

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Garr0t wrote:

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lethal_papercut wrote:

I already picked up an ilvl71 chest for just 2chaos. I haven't even done a map over 62

I think this is great! It means accessibility! I don't have to be a rich mo-fo in order to hang with the ladder players. ;-)

irrelevent. You need to talk about the cost in terms of average play time for it to be comparable to a new economy (for example one where currency drops get better for harder levels).

Yes the currency amount (absolute) will be higher, BUT is your playtime requirement to purchase the same item higher? I wuold suggest that it won't be.

remember prices are set by a willing seller and a willing and able buyer. Low ilevel items won't ever get overpriced as that would require the demand to be ridiculously high compared to supply, and then economics would argue that the items aren't over priced for precisely the same reason (high demand, low supply).

hmmm, come to think of it, calculating costs based on average play time to obtain is a much better way to determine inflation even.....

The good point was raised above regarding utility vs forced rarity (enforced drop ratios). They currently don't match.

Playtime per upgrade grows considerably in Merciless. The number of orbs you need to craft useful items goes up dramatically because your spec requires fairly specific gear. Meanwhile, the chance of finding useful white items plummets because of the broad spread of base white items. You're not going to start making an item with a lvl 25 base chest even if it is a 4L iLvl 50.

What I dislike most about gear-hunting in Ruthless and maps is the near-impossibility of finding an item other than jewelery/belt that you can just equip. There are too many combinations of affixes and sockets so we're pretty much forced into trading or crafting. I suspect the economy will feel a lot better if GGG can get a decent web-based trading system up and running because we'll have more options.

My conclusion from the posts so far is some players want to increase currency so they feel wealthy... Other players enjoy limiting access to high end gear as much as possible, because access to it represents an expression of true wealth.

My take is the currency in this game doesn't make me feel rich and never will, the gear does.

That's why a person at late level who has discarded high end gear is more than happy to trade high end gear for a low amount of currency (comparatively) because they need currency RIGHT NOW to improve existing gear, and they will NEVER need that old gear except maybe for another character later on down the track.

Conversely, high end currency has the opposite problem - low level players find that it's rare and dries up very quickly, but has immense trade value to high end users, so hoard it for fear of using it. They then get caught up in the idea that the currency is SO valuable because of it's trading value, and comparatively gear isn't actually valuable because even the best gear will be able to be traded to them for a very low cost of currency.

Bizarrely, I think this might actually be a working example of a sort of trickle down economy... But that's just a cursory observation I wouldn't put too much merit in.

What's clear is that there is a TENSION between the perceived value of currency to a player who is leveling between what it takes to acquire and value as trade, and what it's actually worth to use is right now.

If you view quantity of currency as indicator of success and wealth - then the system is kind of set up to disappoint you, the currency gets exponentially harder to acquire and SEEMINGLY less useful outside of specific circumstances. If you see ultimate gear as the expression of success and wealth, then you will begrudge the system less because you are more likely appreciate just how hard it is to achieve the ultimate gear...

The real problem is that the system is set up for that time frame to be a VERY long time, to ensure longevity, such long time that regular players, those who are not hardcore, may feel too great a tension between the rarity & value of high end currency items to others and their willingness to use them - This could lead to frustration and anger because high end currency seems both incredibly valuable, hugely unattainable, but also ultimately pointless unless you are so far into the game that you are trying to craft true end game items.

To give a comparison, giving an exalted orb to a low level character is a bit like giving a Lamborghini to a starving family in Africa - they might know it's hugely valuable but also resent it because it's useless to them. They may also be afraid to sell it to someone locally because they have heard of it's true value, or they may sell it inadvertently for quite a large amount of comparative wealth but feel ripped off when they hear what it was ACTUALLY worth to the highest bidder.

There is certainly room for psychological conflict within people with the current orb system - which in closed Beta is having an effect even though everyone knows their characters are going to wiped... How much bigger an effect this has in open beta/release is certainly an interesting question for the developers.