Orb of Fusing and general currency problems

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Never_nou wrote:

Also, simply saying 'You're wrong' isn't really that useful, readers, devs and myself need to actually know WHY otherwise you might as well just type 'retard' and go on your merry way so that I can type 'retard' in return and be on my merry way. In the mean time, I have enough RPG experience (forums included) to know that nothing that I have written is of zero 'value' whereas a simple 'retard' post does indeed have 'zero' value.

I suppose this is preemptive coming from you? If you CTRL + F and type the word 'wrong', you'll find that you're the first one who used the word, but I did say you have some misconceptions and a clear lack of understanding of the vendor system and the crafting process. Not necessarily wrong in some cases, but rather uninformed.

The vendor system has been talked about over and over on this forum. Some searching should reveal that the devs have clearly stated their intentions with the vendor/recipe system and why you see the ratios you do. Also, reading and comprehending Rethinking Gold as a Currency will also help you understand where the devs are coming from. Basically, the vendor system, as I already stated is there as an alternate method of obtaining things you may need. It is the way it is to a)prevent abuse, b)provide loot hoarders and antisocial players a method of obtaining certain common currency and occasionaly more uncommon currency as well(divines, regals) and c)to try and not impose fixed currency ratios in the economy. The economy in PoE should be fluid and dynamic with values and ratios set by the players not by the vendors which brings me to d)to promote trade between players.

Something else that might help you understand the vendor system is the The Exiled Sale Recipe Book (spoilers). Understanding the various recipes for different currencies and item, will help you to understand the vendor prices and why the vendors do or do not sell certain items such as high orbs.

Don't get me wrong though, having an a good understanding doesn't make everything right. There's still work to be done regarding currency drop rates and vendor recipes.

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Yet I cannot exchange these Scouring Orbs for anything in the shops, they are, effectively, useless. Maybe someone can tell me when actually using one might be useful and then quantify the 'value' of this process?

Take a look at Invalesco's recent guide entitled, Your Crafting Resource Guide. Specifically, take a look at The Systematic Alt/Regal/Exalt Method and also Crafting Uniques under the Advanced Crafting Section. In fact, give the whole thing a read. You'll find that many of your 'useless' currencies are in fact quite useful to crafters.

Scourings can be vendored for Regrets. Effectively useless for you as you say, but there's plenty of others who can find use for either. You're using your own purely subjective situations and opinions to belittle the whole system. If you don't like the system, don't use it. If you don't have a need for something then learn how to interact with other players and trade your 'useless' junk for something you want. That is the whole point of this type of economy. That is the point of vendors and their ridiclous trade ratios.

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Never_nou wrote:

So what you are saying is that an Orb of Scouring has a 'high value' when combined with a surplus Orbs of Alchemy. A very specific scenario.

So if Orbs of Chaos and Regal Orbs were more common, then an Orb of Scouring would be completely almost useless?

What you are doing with your Orb of Scouring is the same function as if you were using Regal and Chaos Orbs, yet one method is 'Ultra Rare' and the other method, to produce the exact same result, is widely available?

Aren't you mocking the system by using Orbs of Scouring? If what you say is what you do, what use do you have for Regal Orbs and Choas Orbs, doesn't your system completely devalue Regal and Chaos Orbs?

There are two ways to assign value to an item. One is by what you can do with it in the game; the other is by what you can sell it for in the economy. These values need not be the same.

For example, in game utility, alch+scouring is identical to chaos. In the economy, either might be worth more, perhaps much more, depending partly on rarity, and partly on human behavior, which can be quite inconsistent or even irrational.

All that seems obvious. What I do not understand is, why do you (seem to) think it is bad? Currency values evolve naturally from player behavior. This only damages the game if currency devalues to the point that it has no use. GGG cleverly gave all items a non-transaction use, so this seems unlikely. When players gather a surplus that cannot be usefully sold, they can burn them ingame, just as intended. Too many alterations? Reroll flasks. Too many scouring and alch? Reroll rares. Etc.

For myself, I don't trade at all, at least not yet. I prefer to find/craft my own stuff, that's just how I roll.

As I will not get into all of crafting mechanics, I suggest you familiarize yourself with this thread. http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/54003

Here's why Scouring Orbs are valuable. For starters, the best gear in the game will almost always be crafted. This is because the odds of a drop rolling top tier mods in 2/3 prefixes or suffixes, which are listed http://www.pathofexile.com/item-data/ for that particular item and the stats you desire are 0.

So, when you have great gear, but want better, what do you do? You craft. Crafting is very very very expensive, and it should be, since it can create some of the best items in the game.

For example, these items are made from white items that dropped. Those are considered end game, high end, items. The boots and helm are "best on server", legacy league now :(

To make those items, I had to use 100s of Alteration Orbs to roll a Top tier ES prefix, and than Regal the item to make it rare, and hope that the mod that the regal gave was another top tier ES mod. If it was not, I than used a scouring orb to make it white again and start the process over.

Only when the item was exactly how I wanted it after using a Regal orb, would I then exalt the item 3 times. This is why exalts are so incredibly powerful. Without exalts, I would not be able to craft in this manner. While rolling an item is very expensive, it is the exalting that makes an item cost so much.

If this were cheap and easy to do, everybody would have end game gear very quickly, and there would be nothing to do. Since this is after all a Grinding Gear Game (pun intended).

Chaos orbs do not allow for someone to make an item with precision. They actually have 0 precision and are completely random. This is why I do not use them for crafting myself, although I know others do.

Fusings, which are also powerful, are more prevalent since it can take 100s or them to get the desired result, as where exalts, this is not the case, since you use them only when it can ONLY make the item better. Exalts never fail. They cannot make an item worse. This is why they are rare, and this is why they are valuable. I personally have no problem paying 6 GCP for an exalt since for one, I cannot make an exalt orb like I can a GCP. GCPs are plentiful, because once your gems are maxed, they're done. Anymore you find can be sold.

The vendor buying issue is known by the devs btw. I do not expect to see this in OB and beyond.

The last three posts have been very interesting and informative.

However, each one goes into great detail on how to make the current system work for them.

However, each displays the characteristics of 'the problem'. I have no doubt each of you have 'invested' a lot of time on the current system, so my post 'appears' dangerous because it might cause you problems.

The point of this thread is from a new arrival. Nowhere 'in game' does any of this information/knowledge present itself. It took me a week to realise the difference between selling an identified and unidentified item alone.

There are many (vast numbers of) players out there who will not look at forums, will not look up wiki pages, will probably not even chat to other players about the game. My question is, from the experience of playing, to aid a BETA which changes on a daily basis, how could the currency system work better.

You say the aim is to end the use of Gold as a transaction device?

The answer to that is to have NO dealers. What do we have in this game?

Dealers who sell some stuff but not others.

Dealers who craft but don't tell you what they craft.

Currency which is also a crafting tool.

Currency which has no uniform path of value.

Crafting Currency which does not even provide the purchaser with a guarantee of effectiveness.


And you think 'I' don't get it?


It's half of everything mixed in a bowl and fingers crossed enough people 'get it' without instruction.

Is it currency or is it crafting?

Is it DIY craft-your-own equipment or is it 'play-the-fun-RPG-lottery game?

There are many and numerous of these is it or isn't it factors to this game to which the nub of the 'problem' revolves around:

If you want a game without currency, you have to make the leap to connect Gold with currency and for a game to have no Gold means it's a game without currency.

Bartering is a concept I've heard bandied about, but this is not Bartering. Simply changing Gold for a complex system of rather strange consumables is not Bartering. Implementing Bartering into a computer game is far more complex than this and requires what used to be known as a 'Charisma' stat.

I'm sorry you'd rather not hear my words and that you're happy with the status quo, but I was led to believe this was a BETA forum :)

The crafting guide was recently created. It was not something I could read beforehand. I had to learn this proces.

I learned everything by reading the descriptions of orbs in the game. You can decide to craft, or you can buy the items you wish from others. It's up to you.

The part of currency not being guaranteed to be effective. I'm confused, since the orb says what it will do.

The recipes, I get your point here, but many people ask in game, and they are given the answer. The point is to try and find the the recipe. I wouldn't be surprised if there's another one or two yet to be discovered.

This has nothing to do with a status quo. Everyone starts on the same level and has the exact same stuff. And this is a beta forum, so feel free to express your opinion, but understand that others will do the same.

I was personally telling you why some orbs are rare and valuable compared to others. As well as their functions.

It can be currency, it can be used for crafting. It's up to you. You get to make the decision.

Edit: sorry I missed your smiley face at the end. Will delete first sentence.

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I learned everything by reading the descriptions of orbs in the game.

And how far into the game were you before you knew exactly what 'everything' does?

And you knew 'instantly' from the description of the Orb of Chance 'exactly' what an Orb of Chance does?

And the first time you used an Orb of Fusing you were 'delighted' at the result?

You make some fascinating claims...

I think fusings get a bit of a bad rap from people trying to make 5L and 6L as if they are supposed to be somewhat easy to get.

I haven't even owned a above a 4L yet because you don't have to have them for most builds. I will in the future but I certainly don't expect to put a handful of fusings into an item and get a 5L.

4L are not difficult to make. Occasionally you can have some bad luck and need to get some more to get one but heck I have made multiple 4L with only one fusing. I didn't expect it but it was a pleasant surprise.

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Never_nou wrote:

The point of this thread is from a new arrival. Nowhere 'in game' does any of this information/knowledge present itself. It took me a week to realise the difference between selling an identified and unidentified item alone.

There are many (vast numbers of) players out there who will not look at forums, will not look up wiki pages, will probably not even chat to other players about the game. My question is, from the experience of playing, to aid a BETA which changes on a daily basis, how could the currency system work better.

I think this is mostly a good thing. I think its a breath of fresh air having to learn about a game yourself instead of getting everything dumbed down or having long tutorials. I find the game to be more interesting this way. The alternative is games like D3 that take basically no thought at all.

I have a 5L all-blue Chestplate from 'getting lucky' with just a couple of Orbs, I was delighted and didn't feel at all over-powered.

I used 10 Orbs of Fusing on a pair of all-blue four socketed shoes and got nowhere and I was devastated and felt like quitting.

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I think its a breath of fresh air having to learn about a game yourself instead of getting everything dumbed down or having long tutorials. I find the game to be more interesting this way.

Just because something is 'complex' does not mean it is not 'dumbed down', dumb things often produce the most horribly complex results.

But I do understand where you're coming from, as I said in my early posts, there's a framework for something really good here, but learning the mechanics of a repetitive ARPG game from trial and error over a long period is, I suspect, a non-majority exercise.

Most things are popular when they are small. It doesn't matter what system you are using if the client base can feel they are part of a small elite club. All those 'secrets' are all part of it. But if this game ever wants to get big...

There's gonna be a whole lotta posts a heck of lot worse than mine...

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Never_nou wrote:

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I learned everything by reading the descriptions of orbs in the game.

And how far into the game were you before you knew exactly what 'everything' does?

And you knew 'instantly' from the description of the Orb of Chance 'exactly' what an Orb of Chance does?

And the first time you used an Orb of Fusing you were 'delighted' at the result?

You make some fascinating claims...

These aren't wild claims, they are pretty accurate. The orbs have full descriptions right on the item in-game that tell you what they do.

Also, once you use a few of them, you see the practical results of what they do. New players are likely to use some orbs early to see the results. Well if you use a fusing (the orb you seem most focused on) on an item that only has 3 sockets, it's pretty easy to get a 3-link item.

If, however, you use that same fusing on a 5 or 6 socket item, trying to get one of the best types of items in the game (a 5+ link item) it is likely to be a lot harder. This is because most orbs are not completely random. They are pseudo-random. Fusings are tuned by their effect and their drop rate (they are actually quite common drops, but are consumed in larger numbers) to be very effective at creating 3-link items, while at the same time ensuring that 5+link items are rare and valuable.

As to your first post, I agree that vendors should sell more than 1 orb at a time. But the rest I don't agree with. I don't think the currency system is perfect, but I do think it is unique and cleverly designed and only needs minor tweaks if anything at all.

http://www.pathofexile.com/news/2011-02-08/dev-diary-currency
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/54003
I encourage you to read the links others provided above. As for some of the orbs you think are useless, I can sum up why none of the orbs are useless in one word:


--- Synergy ---

Synergy is the real power of the orbs. The game provides you the descriptions of the effects of the orbs, and if you try to come up with "orb combos" you will realize that the drop rate and usefulness of an orb is almost always about the synergy it has with the other orbs in the game.

Lastly: Your biggest frustration seems to be with orbs of fusing. Well here's a tip: You can save nearly all your orbs of fusings for trading and have plenty of them on hand if you do two things:

-Find or trade for 3-link and 4-link white items & then use: whetstones/armorer's scraps + orbs of alchemy + orbs of chaos. This way all you need to complete the item are a few chromatics, which are much more common than fusings.

-If you must use a fusing on a rare, only try for 3-links. Anything else is a bonus.

See, 3 and 4 link items are viable even for end-game. In fact, when you use less support gems, you will also need less mana and mana regen because your skills will often be cheaper. Plus, 4-link white items are probably cheaper than you realize to trade for. You can often get them for only 1 fusing or 1 alchemy orb.