Maps for end game isn't enough
" This is also a great idea. Right now the leaderboard is only based on experienced gained. It has nothing (well relatively little) to do with skill, but purely with dedication. An Endless Dungeon (again perfectly suitable for our current map engine, except that it would sustain itself) creates a much better representation of strength when the leaderboard is based on dungeon level attained. Sure, the rules around starting point after quiting and all the sorts need to be worked out, but boy this sounds much more interesting. You know why these type of ideas appeal to us players? Because we control the difficulty we are engaging in and testing our own limits. | |
" Perhaps a way to increase items but within limitation, as you mentioned, would be to use the prefix/suffix system already in place. Each prefix/suffix has a range of values that it can be, like "Dauntless" prefix for energy shield that gives between 121-170% local ES. When you finish the map and improve the item, it has a chance to bump up the power of one of the mods on that item. The maximum power of the item would still be determined by the base mods rolled on it, you wouldnt be able to exceed the limit of a given prefix or suffix, just get to the best of it. This chance to improve would be very high for the mods with large ranges like the one I gave in my example, and much lower for something like "Dragon's" which gives 25-30% more item rarity, so that going from minimum within an affix to its maximum takes about the same amount of time no matter the affix. Having a higher natural roll on your affixes makes it take less time to improve gear to it's absolute best, and perhaps higher level maps would give more roll chances than lower level. If for example the chance was designed to take 50 upgrade chance rolls on average to go from minimum to maximum, and your gear has 6 mods and started in the middle for each affix, then it would take 150 upgrade chance rolls to get that one piece to the best it could be. If a level 60 map gave 1 roll, level 61 gave 2, 62=3, and so on, then it would take 150 level 60 maps to upgrade that piece to max, or 15 level 69 maps, to upgrade an average piece of good gear to it's best. The number can be tweaked, maybe only giving an extra chance roll every 2 map levels, to reduce the difference between low and high level maps, and to draw out the end-game as long as possible by adjusting the rate of gear uprgade as long as possible. I do specify ugprade, not random reroll, because players need to feel like they will get some sort of specific benefit from accomplishing a goal, no matter how small or gradual that may be. | |
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To the people who suggest PvP to be the "main" end-game, there are many people who have absolutely ZERO interest in playing PvP in a game like this, for all kinds of reasons.
How many people are currently playing POE for PvP? If PvP IS supposed to be the meat of the end-game, many people will quickly move on to other things. |
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" Agreed, you don't want it to be random, it has to be actual improvement. Other then that you worded it much better then I did, but had the same idea. Max stats are limited by the initial mod the item has. So you will still be looking for those max mods on items in the real world. | |
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Well it has been mentioned here alrdy, just c&p from another thread, before i saw this one:
///////////////////////////////// Endless dungeon: Hey there. For me maps are a convenient way to get to highlvl areas, to get easier and better drops and to be challenged, in a very uncomplicated, fast way. But somehow: One does not always have maps. Or they are to low lvl, etc. So in this case one has to farm the known areas to get to some endgamecontent. For me engame content should always be available, so I dont have to trade it or to farm it. A solution would be an endless dungeon. For example like the church, but with indefinite lvls. Dependend of the size of each stage, after every 3/5/10 stages the monster lvl will rise. To proceed to the next level at least 80% of the monters have to be killed (or all monsters. Just to prevent ppl rush through to higher lvl). One can not teleport back to town. If doing so, he will not be able to rejoin the actuall lvl of the dungeon again, but has to start again all over. Same when you die. So with this system one would always have access to higher lvl maps and be challenged, but has to invest more time. Maps would be just a shortcut. One could then also think about special stages. Like every 10th is extremly dangerous, by adding special planned dungeons (like 1hit laser shooting through room conncting doors in regular delays, or something). Or evey 5th stage maps get a random attribute (like increased ias/movementspeed/dmg/resistance of monsters), which will count for each followed lvl (iiq and iir should be excluded here, only negative effects for the player, to make it even harder). Also a disadvantage to maps would be: You only have one inventar. You cant sell and get back to the actual location. I think this would ba a very nice addition to the maps, which are btw a very good idea. With maps one could get to higher lvl areas with iiq/iir, which would not be possible in the dungeon. And so on and so on. This dungeon could be easily balanced in such a way, that one still wants to play it, but is also happy about high lvl maps. What do you guys think about it? Discuss. ///////////////////////////////// | |
" this is very similar to the unique map idea i was thinking off putting forward to the devs for my 3rd diamond. "Bullshit, you get the game for free." - Qarl 2014
"The 5x Diamond Supporter" |
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" I like this idea. BUT: This would lead to a inflation of perfect rolled items. A perfect roll should be something, which is very rare. Like when you get it you know: This is just awesome. But if you just have to invest time to get there, those rolls are nice, but nothing so special anymore. So one should rly limit the improvements of the item. Like one can only reach 80% of the max. possible value, by using such item improvements mechanism. By this, one can upgrade a not so good roll to still nice value, but to get the perfect item you still need luck and have to trade. | |
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What I get from all the posted ideas in here (and what I think too) is that the current end-game map system lacks one big thing, even if their drop rate is fixed so you'll always get another map inside a map.
What's missing is any sense of progress from doing those maps. Each map is a bite sized chunk of content, doable in 15-30 minutes. It gives you, usually, another map of a similar level and some currency items (respectively some rares which most likely get turned in to currency items). Any experience gained will eventually be negligible because of outleveleling the available maps. According to Chris, the design intent with maps is you have to modify them with currency items to get a sustainable map drop rate. This leads me to the conclusion, that the average reward for doing maps is the ability to do another map since you need a map found in the map you just did and some of the currency items it dropped to modifiy it to a level that gives you the necessary rewards to do another map. Or in short, the reward of doing maps is being able to do more maps. To me this is an issue. There is no sense of progression or advancements in there. Progression is the big thing underlaying ARPGs though. You get more levels, more gear, more skills, harder enemies and bosses, etc. during the normal game play. We can't just have those in the end-game of course (mainly not more skills and the like). The proposed Item World from Disgea would give you small progression in the form of enhanced items. An Endless Dungeon would give you the progression in form of the deepest level one achieves until you hit a wall. Hard Mode Bosses (or uber bosses, similar in concept to raids actually) would give you (with fixed drops) a specific gear upgrade or again the progress in form of (there are so many bosses to kill) killing them for the first time is a progress in itself. The Alternate Advancement system from Rift and similar games gives you tiny stat upgrades which, while not too meaningfull, improve your character every time you do something, you don't just stay at the same level for ever. With maps though, you only get more maps to do. You're essentially stuck. And this is what I don't like about the map system as the end-all of PvE end game. | |
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About the endless dungeon idea, it can solve the problem of needing viable content and present a challenge, but it is still a crappy little band-aid to a big problem. Endless dungeons get boring after 10 levels, unless you don't mind generic mind-numbing boredom. This same problem is present in the current maps system.
Now if you really want to go big, you make dungeons that require some form of small scale grouping to complete, with an amazing boss encounter at the end, with sub-bosses leading up to him. Before you start groaning about WoW raids, I had DAoC's small group dungeons in mind. Darkness Falls dungeon was a shining example of how to make end game content thats fun for everyone. I would love to see something like that incorporated into this game. Maybe have a PvP battlegrounds, and fighting for certain choke points opens up different end game dungeons. I don;t know what the best way would be to make it work, but theres gotta be something better than grinding so-called "randomized" generic content over and over. It's not the mobs that get me excited, its scripted events and amazing landscapes/dungeons that make me feel like im immersed in a crazy world. |
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