PoE could use Diablo 2's Teleport skill

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Choice. In order to compete you had to have teleport, because teleport was op'd, and anyone who had it would win against anyone without it.

In PvP you also have to have a mouse. Are you going to cry about that as well?

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XxDragon wrote:

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Choice. In order to compete you had to have teleport, because teleport was op'd, and anyone who had it would win against anyone without it.

In PvP you also have to have a mouse. Are you going to cry about that as well?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

I'm not distorting his point. He's arguing that he doesn't like necessity in PvP, and I gave him another example. There is always an aspect of everything that is the best method to do something.

I normally dislike people whipping out the Phallusies to deal with an argument, but in this case, it's totally justified.

The devs are against set items for precisely the same reason as they'd shy from a skill that would be compulsory for PvP -- lack of options and forced conformity.

I do miss a more impressive teleport and think GGG could come up with some creative variations thereof, considering Lightning Warp is just a sort of 'invisible intangible' walk/run from one place to another.

That said, phase run itself is likely to get a revision soon, I'd say. It resembles a 'must have' skill in PvP so far, especially cut-throat.

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XxDragon wrote:

I'm not distorting his point. He's arguing that he doesn't like necessity in PvP, and I gave him another example. There is always an aspect of everything that is the best method to do something.

Correct, but one is a requirement external to the game and the other is an internal requirement.

In order to compete at SC2 multi-player, you need an internet connection. But that is not the same as if Blizzard made one unit for the Zerg immortal, requiring any player who wished to participate in multi-player, use the Zerg.

In Diablo 2:NOX the Amazon using Charged Strike with the farcast bug was the best. You didn't have to do it, but if you wanted to compete with someone that did, you used the same method.

To compete against someone with a mouse in PvP, you're going to have to use a mouse. True balance in skills or PVP in its entirety has never been done, and is virtually impossible to achieve. In Diablo 2:LOD's case, they made the best option something that required a huge amount of skill and created a skill-gap in dueling... rather than an item-gap.

With this, people could easily farm bosses fast and efficiently. This made MFing (Magic Finding) fun even for the casual players. With Enigma, this made the world open, free, accessible, and fastly accessible with any class one chose to use.

I completly agree with teleport being way too OP. PoE has some mechanics like Leap Strike that could develop into the same direction.

The problem with teleport was that there was no drawback. PvP wasn't really PvP it was random teleportation. It screwed a lot of skills like Blizzard or Frostsphere (actually both of them are kind of broken themself). And since there was no restriction (well... technically mana, but that wasn't really a restriction). After they fixed Leap Strike to not always hit, they really screwed barbs, since there jump was just too slow against teleport and you could always just teleport away. This was exspecially true for sorcs, since they were able to cast teleport a lot faster than some other classes, since they had some cast-time reduction.

If I want a fast paced... whatever, I would play CS, Unreal etc. PoE-PvP should be about decisions and not about speed. Making PvP about speed makes good equipment and latency too important. You should have a plan how to react to certain situations and that should bring you victory, not how fast you can press the right mouse-button.

Since there are a lot of movement-enhancing abilities (Shieldcharge, Phase-Run, Leap-Strike) I actually really believe that PvP will be most likely broken in regards to this skills. Also being able to apply two curses is a really great benefit in PvP.

A Leap-Striking Marauder or a temporal-chain Ice-Witch. Not sure which of them would make the race, but I really don't see much place for rangers at all (first because of evasion, and second because they can't keep distance). But since they already mentioned to make PvP more like a part-time job and not what you really care about, I guess this is fine. Balancing stuff for PvP normally totally ruins PvE and at least right now this is the greater part of the game.

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XxDragon wrote:

In Diablo 2:NOX the Amazon using Charged Strike with the farcast bug was the best. You didn't have to do it, but if you wanted to compete with someone that did, you used the same method.

To compete against someone with a mouse in PvP, you're going to have to use a mouse. True balance in skills or PVP in its entirety has never been done, and is virtually impossible to achieve. In Diablo 2:LOD's case, they made the best option something that required a huge amount of skill and created a skill-gap in dueling... rather than an item-gap.

With this, people could easily farm bosses fast and efficiently. This made MFing (Magic Finding) fun even for the casual players. With Enigma, this made the world open, free, accessible, and fastly accessible with any class one chose to use.

Enigmas use as method for increasing player speed in the game as a means of loot grinding is separate from the pvp discussion, which is what my points were directed at. I have nothing against giving players methods of increasing their speed in the game.

My point was that Enigma was a requirement in PvP - not in the same way as a mouse/keyboard/internet connection/hands/sentience/linear time - is a requirement for pvp. The latter are requirements placed on the player in order to enter the world in which she wants to interact, the former is an artificial requirement within that world which dictates how they can participate, and their chance of success in that activity.

Call them "broad" and "narrow" requirements. Broad requirements are generally fair because, being broad, most people will fall into them. For example, your point about the mouse, I'll bet dollars to donuts that nearly everyone who played D2 used a mouse. So, they are all on level footing.

However, not nearly everyone who wished to participate in PvP had an Enigma. That is artificially restrictive, and not an intended feature of the game, but rather the discovery by the player base that the exploitation of a particular skill can generate a dominating position in pvp.

Maybe I am wrong and Blizzard North knew all along the power Enigma would have and they intended it to be a requirement in PvP. Either way, I hope no such items are placed into PoE simply because "balancing is hard".

Another thing about requirements, some are expected and obvious... nobody ever asks "Hey, can I come to the party?" and when they are told they can, respond with "Okay, but do I have to leave my house to come?" that is because, to be at one place you cannot be at the other. Similarly, I doubt anyone went into D2 PvP and expected to be forced to use a particular item or skill in order to succeed, and simply because the player base learned and accepted that reality isn't a sign of good game design and it shouldn't be used as evidence that such features should be replicated here.

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The problem with teleport was that there was no drawback. PvP wasn't really PvP it was random teleportation. It screwed a lot of skills like Blizzard

Wrong; Blizzard was just as usable as any other skill. No matter what, it took skill to hit a good player no matter what you used. Also, no, there was no "randomness" in high-skilled dueling. Teleporting for no reason is just a waste of mana. Example; if you see a sorc blasting Fireballs at you, you can teleport in between the blasts and tele-stomp him/her. Teleport took skill, period.

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Call them "broad" and "narrow" requirements. Broad requirements are generally fair because, being broad, most people will fall into them. For example, your point about the mouse, I'll bet dollars to donuts that nearly everyone who played D2 used a mouse. So, they are all on level footing.

People could duel on a sorceress, no matter how rich or poor they were. If they are going into a duel under-geared, they would have a much better chance at winning in Teleport vs. Teleport versus any other method of dueling. Example, two barbarians Whirlwinding at each other. This sort of dueling is entirely a gear check.

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XxDragon wrote:

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The problem with teleport was that there was no drawback. PvP wasn't really PvP it was random teleportation. It screwed a lot of skills like Blizzard

Wrong; Blizzard was just as usable as any other skill. No matter what, it took skill to hit a good player no matter what you used. Also, no, there was no "randomness" in high-skilled dueling. Teleporting for no reason is just a waste of mana. Example; if you see a sorc blasting Fireballs at you, you can teleport in between the blasts and tele-stomp him/her. Teleport took skill, period.

It wasn't skill. Since the only method to know where a player will teleport was guessing it was more some kind of lottery. Teleport was so freaking fast, that if not inflicted with something disallowing movement you got a single hit in. Well since you don't need resistance work-arrounds a full fireball or similar skills packs quite a punch since it was easy to get all the synergies.

Well actually frost was broken since it was so easy to get an item which cancels freezing (to not rely on potions) and the slow projectiles made the sorc literally a melee-char. You could even kill people by randomly teleporting and shooting meteors, which clearly showed that it was more about random teleportation than skill. A mechanic is always totally screwed if people are allowed to travel faster than most of the projectiles. D2-PvP was just awful. It was nether really balanced and it was always totally dependend of teleport (which was funny in classic as it was only avaible to sorcs and freeze-immunity was harder to get).

D2 was all about get this or die in PvP, which is an awful concept. Actually Movement should be one of the choices you have. I also hated WoW for this reason since everyone was jumping around randomly, which had no purpose but to make PvP an annoyance. And actually I have never seen someone jumping around while swinging a large hammer.

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No matter what, it took skill to hit a good player no matter what you used. Also, no, there was no "randomness" in high-skilled dueling. Teleporting for no reason is just a waste of mana.

It was still guessing, since there was no indicater where someone teleports. And actually my teleport cost was about 10 Mana... since my classic-sorc was still specced in Manashield 10 Mana was nothing. It was easy to kill most people by random teleporting with an active thunderstorm and spamming some novas. Although the stomped Nova and Thunderstorm with the synergies Thunderstorm still requires no skill at all, since it always hit's if something comes next to you, so you could just randomly teleport around people and if they don't have incredible high lightning-resistance they are screwed without a chance to hit you, since it was almost impossible to hit someone permanently teleporting. A 20+4 Teleport costs 1 Point of Mana... yeah I guess you would go OOM pretty soon and since lightning only needs 80 Skillpoints and the requirements you actually only needed someone who helps you leveling your Lightning-Sorc since she was useless in PvE (well she was pretty gear-dependend in PvP too, since in LoD you needed a lot of +Lightning-Damage or -Enemy resistances two attributes not really common in D2 (Rainbow Facets or a unique Orb had some). I just kept my Classic-Lightning-Sorc and gave her some of the new Charms and she had about 50% reduced enemy lightning-resistance and 3000 Basic Thunderstorm-Damage, which hit every 1,2seconds (with actually no chance to avoid the damage). If I remember correctly Thunderstorm was active for 5minutes with a manacost of 20 or so and teleport costs 1 Point. The rest is all for the manashield. No idea if they fixed some of this, the sorc got deleted later and I played a normal Frostfire-Sorc (with not even a single point in Teleport).

D2 was mainly about gear... well actually Enigma is the best example for this.

Teleport was a low cost skill that almost made you invulnerable it also eliminated all possible skill-requirements and nailed pvp down to having a good connection, a good mouse and some dexterity. You don't needed a brain at all. I guess an ape could teleport as well as most players.

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This sort of dueling is entirely a gear check.

And it is a stupid thing. You could just weapon swap leap away and throw stuff at the other barb. And actually it's the same with teleport. It's not as true for a sorc, since she only requires rare gear if facing high-resistance opponents, but the sorc was primarly Skillpoint-dependend, the barb isn't and nothing would change if both barbs start teleporting.