Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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Iamstryker

We see this too differently to ever make the other see it the way they want. I see it as fair due to anyone getting drops if they want. You got to the core of your point by finally actually saying that the only confusing mechanic is the naming system for the loot. Which I agree is dumb.

We just can't see eye to eye, but at least we did it in a way that was more reserved.

My final notes on this:

Catering to the lowest common denominator just doesn't seem like a good design choice when your primary market (note I didn't say largest) is gamers who have played this genre for well over a decade. If they wish to maximize short term profits, they probably will listen to you guys and implement loot options, or instanced loot. Most of the long term players will leave though, and they will be forced to effectively recycle players as they go through batch and batch of new ones.

My reasoning behind not having loot options is simple, people will always play the way that will maximize profits and speed. Instanced does this, at the cost of social interaction for most players.

After I edit this to answer the other guys questions, I am bowing out again.

[sqoiler]Counter-question: Why does you clicking on it first mean you deserve it? Does it not matter that I helped down the boss? Does it not matter that I helped down the trash? Does it not matter that, if nothing else, you wouldn't have cleared it in anywhere near the time you did with my help? Nor, in fact, perhaps even seen that loot to begin with if I hadn't been there?

If you can honestly answer no to all of those, then I concede. All that matters is that you have the money in the real world to afford a good machine and internet, and play a melee character. If you hesitate on even one, then I propose we need a better system in some way.

If you want you're close to full FFA without ranged feeling like they're getting the short end of the stick for playing safer and (theoretically) contributing more damage, how about this:

When loot drops no one can collect it. There is a hidden timer that will start counting down, ranging from oh say 3 seconds to 6 seconds (might need adjustment, but I trust you get the point) at which point it becomes available to all. Thus game play style no longer becomes the deciding factor. Instead it's connection speed, and computer power. Which, after all, are what winning a true FFA loot is all about. I could personally see this being ok IF AN ONLY IF GGG manages to create stable connections for the vast majority of players, and set up graphic options for mid- to low-end PCs to run this at a decent frame rate.

Honestly I see that system flying about as well as the current one. But I also feel the way to originally go would have been either instanced loot, or what we have without the timers. I'm not a fan of FFA because it encourages play style not conducive to group play.

Perhaps we need a league for full FFA and a league for assigned drops. Probably been suggested, but would be my preferred solution to this.[/quote]

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Jackel6672 wrote:

Catering to the lowest common denominator...

I'm calling this now. Your argument is entirely bullshit because it's based on the idea of "D2 did it X way, therefore whoever supports the way D2 did it is superior."

Get lost, hipster.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

My reasoning behind not having loot options is simple, people will always play the way that will maximize profits and speed. Instanced does this, at the cost of social interaction for most players.

You clearly have no understanding of risk/reward considerations. Instanced is low risk, low reward, while FFA is high risk, high reward. All the same items will drop, no more, no less. No method of quasi-random loot distribution is at all faster than any other. Also, the amount of "social interaction" in Diablo 2, a game with FFA looting, was near 0, so don't act like Instanced looting is somehow less socially interactive than FFA. You can't meaningfully quantify that.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

My reasoning behind not having loot options is simple, people will always play the way that will maximize profits and speed. Instanced does this, at the cost of social interaction for most players.

There are many people who have posted in this thread that say the exact opposite: that they like FFA and they will play FFA if the option to play with longer timers/instanced loot is introduced. This is a flat-out lie.

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Counter-question: Why does you clicking on it first mean you deserve it? Does it not matter that I helped down the boss? Does it not matter that I helped down the trash? Does it not matter that, if nothing else, you wouldn't have cleared it in anywhere near the time you did with my help? Nor, in fact, perhaps even seen that loot to begin with if I hadn't been there?

If you can honestly answer no to all of those, then I concede. All that matters is that you have the money in the real world to afford a good machine and internet, and play a melee character. If you hesitate on even one, then I propose we need a better system in some way.

If you want you're close to full FFA without ranged feeling like they're getting the short end of the stick for playing safer and (theoretically) contributing more damage, how about this:

When loot drops no one can collect it. There is a hidden timer that will start counting down, ranging from oh say 3 seconds to 6 seconds (might need adjustment, but I trust you get the point) at which point it becomes available to all. Thus game play style no longer becomes the deciding factor. Instead it's connection speed, and computer power. Which, after all, are what winning a true FFA loot is all about. I could personally see this being ok IF AN ONLY IF GGG manages to create stable connections for the vast majority of players, and set up graphic options for mid- to low-end PCs to run this at a decent frame rate.

Honestly I see that system flying about as well as the current one. But I also feel the way to originally go would have been either instanced loot, or what we have without the timers. I'm not a fan of FFA because it encourages play style not conducive to group play.

Perhaps we need a league for full FFA and a league for assigned drops. Probably been suggested, but would be my preferred solution to this.

Third time trying to respond. I keep losing what I wrote for some reason.

Going to paraphrase now..
edit:
To be blunt, no, it does not matter that you helped clear it in such an efficient manner as far as drops go. The game gives you one chance to pick up timered loot, and that's all the chances it needs to give. Play style then dicates how much loot you get, yours and others. The other culprits (lag, etc) will eventually be ironed out as a non issue once the game gets farther in its life span.

This leaves a system dictated by how the party plays, and how well they can function as a group. Which is the epitome of FFA, a group allocating their own drops and being able to function as a killing machine.

Mechanics dictate how loot drops and who the timer goes for. The game does not care who click the loot first, only if who clicked it can pick it up. Asking for anything other then mechanics is opinion, and not debatable in most cases.

Safer styles don't get the short end, they're safer for a reason. There's downsides to all styles, and up sides. Its what makes FFA dynamic. FFA can also be any loot style dictated by and agreed on by the party itself. Adding hard coded options results in a less dynamic atmosphere.

Your loot option would be fun, kind of a loot roulette. I agree with non timers. I also really liked a suggestion earlier about not showing rarity of loot until the timer was up.

Someone is trying just that like 300 pages ago, offered Chris money for an instanced league. Not sure if anything came out of it.

I missed a lot from my first two attempts, hopefully this will do justice. Trying to remember everything and watch a 1 year old can be difficult.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

Catering to the lowest common denominator just doesn't seem like a good design choice when your primary market (note I didn't say largest) is gamers who have played this genre for well over a decade. If they wish to maximize short term profits, they probably will listen to you guys and implement loot options, or instanced loot. Most of the long term players will leave though, and they will be forced to effectively recycle players as they go through batch and batch of new ones.

I question the intelligence and sanity of anyone who would leave because there is another loot option.

"

Jackel6672 wrote:

My reasoning behind not having loot options is simple, people will always play the way that will maximize profits and speed. Instanced does this, at the cost of social interaction for most players.

So your actually saying that you wouldn't play FFA because a non competitive system would be faster and more profitable? Seriously? Its sad you guys have no faith in the system your advocating. You must not think its very fun if no one at all would use it simply because there is another option. Why the hell does anyone ever play hardcore league? It takes more time and effort than Default.

On a side note you FFAers can't seem to get your arguments straight. Usually you guys say the game is slowed down in any system other than FFA. Here you try to say that the game would be faster in an instanced system.

I think you guys should stop speculating and worrying about what would happen. If you like FFA then keep playing it, if you would stop because of a non competitive system then you never really liked it much in the first place.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

"

Counter-question: Why does you clicking on it first mean you deserve it? Does it not matter that I helped down the boss? Does it not matter that I helped down the trash? Does it not matter that, if nothing else, you wouldn't have cleared it in anywhere near the time you did with my help? Nor, in fact, perhaps even seen that loot to begin with if I hadn't been there?

If you can honestly answer no to all of those, then I concede. All that matters is that you have the money in the real world to afford a good machine and internet, and play a melee character. If you hesitate on even one, then I propose we need a better system in some way.

If you want you're close to full FFA without ranged feeling like they're getting the short end of the stick for playing safer and (theoretically) contributing more damage, how about this:

When loot drops no one can collect it. There is a hidden timer that will start counting down, ranging from oh say 3 seconds to 6 seconds (might need adjustment, but I trust you get the point) at which point it becomes available to all. Thus game play style no longer becomes the deciding factor. Instead it's connection speed, and computer power. Which, after all, are what winning a true FFA loot is all about. I could personally see this being ok IF AN ONLY IF GGG manages to create stable connections for the vast majority of players, and set up graphic options for mid- to low-end PCs to run this at a decent frame rate.

Honestly I see that system flying about as well as the current one. But I also feel the way to originally go would have been either instanced loot, or what we have without the timers. I'm not a fan of FFA because it encourages play style not conducive to group play.

Perhaps we need a league for full FFA and a league for assigned drops. Probably been suggested, but would be my preferred solution to this.

Third time trying to respond. I keep losing what I wrote for some reason.

Going to paraphrase now..

Mechanics dictate how loot drops and who the timer goes for. The game does not care who click the loot first, only if who clicked it can pick it up. Asking for anything other then mechanics is opinion, and not debatable in most cases.

Safer styles don't get the short end, they're safer for a reason. There's downsides to all styles, and up sides. Its what makes FFA dynamic. FFA can also be any loot style dictated by and agreed on by the party itself. Adding hard coded options results in a less dynamic atmosphere.

Your loot option would be fun, kind of a loot roulette. I agree with non timers. I also really liked a suggestion earlier about not showing rarity of loot until the timer was up.

Someone is trying just that like 300 pages ago, offered Chris money for an instanced league. Not sure if anything came out of it.

I don't think you answered his questions at all. What you repeat over and over does not explain why a player who picks it up first DESERVES the loot verses the other player who has contributed just as much if not more for the team. You continue to explain what FFA is and the mechanics of FFA, WE GET IT. FFA only cares about who picks it up! What we are asking is does that player really DESERVE the loot more than the others simply because he gets to it first.

In your opinion apparently he does. In our opinions he does not because being a faster clicker really means nothing to us. Its a silly childish mini game we have no interest in playing.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

Most of the long term players will leave

pure 100% FUD.

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XCodes wrote:

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Jackel6672 wrote:

Catering to the lowest common denominator...

I'm calling this now. Your argument is entirely bullshit because it's based on the idea of "D2 did it X way, therefore whoever supports the way D2 did it is superior."

Get lost, hipster.

"

Jackel6672 wrote:

My reasoning behind not having loot options is simple, people will always play the way that will maximize profits and speed. Instanced does this, at the cost of social interaction for most players.

You clearly have no understanding of risk/reward considerations. Instanced is low risk, low reward, while FFA is high risk, high reward. All the same items will drop, no more, no less. No method of quasi-random loot distribution is at all faster than any other. Also, the amount of "social interaction" in Diablo 2, a game with FFA looting, was near 0, so don't act like Instanced looting is somehow less socially interactive than FFA. You can't meaningfully quantify that.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

My reasoning behind not having loot options is simple, people will always play the way that will maximize profits and speed. Instanced does this, at the cost of social interaction for most players.

There are many people who have posted in this thread that say the exact opposite: that they like FFA and they will play FFA if the option to play with longer timers/instanced loot is introduced. This is a flat-out lie.

1. You seem to fail at reading comprehension. Instanced loot has the least amount of interaction gameplay wise. Its the lowest common denominator. Its effectively single player with more people. Nice insult by the way.

If people wouldn't complain about the less drops, sure that's true. D3 was a prime example of that. Would you rather have lots of loot drop, and get a bit of it. Or barely any loot drop, and get it all? Remember, you need your own Item Quantity, and Item Quality in instanced vs Killing blow in FFA.

The only time I ever had trouble talking to people in D2 was late game Boss rushing. If you actually played the game and didn't rush the entire time, you would find more then enough people were social and out going.

Stop grasping at straws, you know as well as I do that a majority of players would play what's easiest and most cost effective. I am all for increasing the timers until the lag is sorted out. Just not instanced.

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I don't think you answered his questions at all. What you repeat over and over does not explain why a player who picks it up first DESERVES the loot verses the other player who has contributed just as much if not more for the team. You continue to explain what FFA is and the mechanics of FFA, WE GET IT. FFA only cares about who picks it up! What we are asking is does that player really DESERVE the loot more than the others simply because he gets to it first.

In your opinion apparently he does. In our opinions he does not because being a faster clicker really means nothing to us. Its a silly childish mini game we have no interest in playing.

Edit: I reread my post. I lost one of my paragraphs at the start. Not sure what's going on, I keep losing what I write. Not going to rewrite it now. Since it would be changing your response to what I would have written.

I was honest about it. You may have your own petty expectations about who deserves what by doing more, but its all about who clicked it first. You're lack of understanding, or willingness to understand such a simple concept is almost scary.

Its not even my opinion, its exactly how the game works. You either adapt to the game, or you get no loot. Its a brutally simple concept that you absolutely refuse to acknowledge.

You keep saying "Does he REALLY deserve it", as if asking that makes sense. Its in his inventory, he must have deserved it. If he felt he didn't he wouldn't have picked it up.

I'm not sure how much more simple I can make this.

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Counter-question: Why does you clicking on it first mean you deserve it? Does it not matter that I helped down the boss? Does it not matter that I helped down the trash? Does it not matter that, if nothing else, you wouldn't have cleared it in anywhere near the time you did with my help? Nor, in fact, perhaps even seen that loot to begin with if I hadn't been there?

Since I lost my first attempt and repeated ones, I'll do this this way so Stryker can respond properly to what I will write.

As far as the game is concerned, no. It does not matter you helped kill mobs, or even did most of the killing. If you don't get to click on the loot first, you don't get it. Not saying that you shouldn't get any of it, just that you didn't. You may feel wronged, which is fine. You have options available to you, just a lot of people seem unwilling to use. Like letting the bastard die if you are playing a boss or high level areas.

That's the jist of what I wrote. I may have wrote it in nicer tones the first time though.

I also keep noticing no one seems to answer my question: Why do you feel entitled to get loot you didn't click on?

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Jackel6672 wrote:

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Counter-question: Why does you clicking on it first mean you deserve it? Does it not matter that I helped down the boss? Does it not matter that I helped down the trash? Does it not matter that, if nothing else, you wouldn't have cleared it in anywhere near the time you did with my help? Nor, in fact, perhaps even seen that loot to begin with if I hadn't been there?

Since I lost my first attempt and repeated ones, I'll do this this way so Stryker can respond properly to what I will write.

As far as the game is concerned, no. It does not matter you helped kill mobs, or even did most of the killing. If you don't get to click on the loot first, you don't get it. Not saying that you shouldn't get any of it, just that you didn't. You may feel wronged, which is fine. You have options available to you, just a lot of people seem unwilling to use. Like letting the bastard die if you are playing a boss or high level areas.

That's the jist of what I wrote. I may have wrote it in nicer tones the first time though.

I also keep noticing no one seems to answer my question: Why do you feel entitled to get loot you didn't click on?

I don't. But I feel that in a group I should still get some of the decent loot as a range player. Because otherwise what's the point of playing ranged if you never get anything? Besides, who says I didn't click it? Hell I could have even clicked it first, but because you're closer you get it.

Even if we're both melee you could get it first just by virtue of having the money in the real world to have a better computer and/or internet connection.

It's not that I/we don't understand or "grasp" the concept of FFA, and if that's the way GGG wants their game to be then fine. I'll personally never join a public party with a character who fights from range. But the fact that they implemented timers at all, and that they state to be discussing the system, says to me they are at least considering another style.

Honestly, you seem to have zero faith in your own system if you think no one will use it just because there's another option. To me it's the same as HC. It's not for everyone, but the people who enjoy it will continue to utilize it, and those who don't...won't. Simple as that.