Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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Panda413 wrote:

Touché - I jumped in to that one without knowing what you were saying.

Not a bad suggestion as a compromise.

I'm still pro-ffa only -- but I think some sort of change is coming and something along the lines of what you suggested in that thread would be reasonable.

Thanks. I'm pro choice, obviously. I do think FFA is entirely appropriate and best in some cases, in particular during races and in a full PvP environment.

Once you remove those two cases, then you basically have FFA in friendly and unfriendly group cases. In a friendly group the loot distribution mechanism is largely irrelevant - using the word largely rather than totally because 'friendliness' is not an absolute measure. That is to say, in the friendly group case there is no difference between FFA and instanced.

The major case for difference between FFA and a decent instanced system is in a group of strangers. FFA promotes a prisoner's dilemma favoring at the least loot competition over party cooperation in defeating the environment. Put another way, in this case, FFA both enables and promotes what is called griefing behavior in most games. Now there is nothing wrong with this case if every member of a party desires this, but without any realistic options it merely forces many players to choose between playing solo with all the loot or playing in a party of strangers and getting next to no loot.


I believe that the party of strangers case is where most of the disagreement lays. Two sides are saying everyone must be forced to deal with their solution or the game is broken, a third side says give us a choice. Many on the third side simply continue not participating in groups of strangers (solo option) and this does introduce a difference in difficulty - or does it? I find that it is quite possible to farm very effectively solo (and in hardcore I might add) but doing so is rather restrictive of build and play styles.

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Xavderion wrote:

Because then everyone would play the instanced loot version. Not because it's more fun, but because it's easier. Human nature.

Oh I'm sorry I didn't realize you were Jay Wilson and could decide what other people have fun doing.

No-ninja is just another way to basically say instanced loot, which is what a lot of people want an option for. I won't speak for why other people want it, but I want it because it's not fun for me to play with griefers all the time.

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Panda413 wrote:

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Sickness wrote:

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Panda413 wrote:

I'm still pro-ffa only -- but I think some sort of change is coming and something along the lines of what you suggested in that thread would be reasonable.

Since (seemingly) the only reason you are pro FFA is because that's the way it is, you would obviously change your mind if the devs changed their minds and intended something else.
That's a good thing I suppose.

I didn't say it was the only reason, I said I only need to provide 1 reason to prove your theory of NO reason as foolish.

Oh I am well aware of that. Or do you think the "(seemingly)" was put in my post by accident? Have some common sense.
But I did ask for reasons, and you only gave me one, so it was the best assumption I could make.

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Panda413 wrote:

And your italicized summary of that reason is wrong which indicates you lack the reading comprehension to even understand the reason I went out of my way to explain as if I was addressing a child.

No it isn't. Don't you understand your own position?
Maybe if you use less words and more reasoning...

"a good reason for FFA to be the only loot mechanic is that is the way the developers of the game intended to be played"

There you have it. Your reason is "because that's way it is". But that wasn't even the important part of my post; If the devs change their minds then that reason would no longer be valid.
It's a common defense against any change, but it is really nothing but air.

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Panda413 wrote:

Arguing with you is pointless because inside your head exists a reality that does not exist in my head. Your brain interprets things it sees to fit inside that reality. So I could type "Duck" and your brain would read "Cow". It's impossible for anyone that doesn't share your false reality to have a rational discussion with you.

I think you are projecting.

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Omnivore61 wrote:

Put another way, in this case, FFA both enables and promotes what is called griefing behavior in most games. Now there is nothing wrong with this case if every member of a party desires this.

Exactly. Well put.
That is why I think that even FFA players would greatly benefit from IL, because then everyone would be in on the FFA action and that would make it alot more enjoyable. Right now you can end up being kicked or screamed at or insulted by just playing the game is intended, that isn't really fun, and it will never change if the loot system doesn't change.

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tackle70 wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

Because then everyone would play the instanced loot version. Not because it's more fun, but because it's easier. Human nature.

Oh I'm sorry I didn't realize you were Jay Wilson and could decide what other people have fun doing.

No-ninja is just another way to basically say instanced loot, which is what a lot of people want an option for. I won't speak for why other people want it, but I want it because it's not fun for me to play with griefers all the time.

You didn't understand my post. What I'm saying is that even people who have more fun playing with FFA loot would play with instanced loot because it's easier.

Let me give you an example, imagine PoE had a RMAH. As we know from D3, it's a lot easier to play the AH than to play the game if you want to acquire gear, so people are doing it even though for the most of them playing the game would be more fun (only a small amount of people actually likes to sit infront of the AH all day and try to snipe some cheap items). The same would happen in PoE.

And you are approaching the FFA thing with the wrong mindset, since you don't realize that as soon as the timer is over the loot is not yours anymore so you can't call it ninja-ing or griefing if someone else picks it up.

If GGG can find a way for the playing field to be level, in terms of lag, being ranged, desync and so on, FFA is fine. If they cannot, then it is just ideological posturing with no real substance. IE, losing out to mechanics beyond ones control is neither competitive nor cutthroat, merely frustrating.
Theres nothing more I can add to this discussion, and Im sure its been said already.

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Xavderion wrote:

You didn't understand my post. What I'm saying is that even people who have more fun playing with FFA loot would play with instanced loot because it's easier.

Let me give you an example, imagine PoE had a RMAH. As we know from D3, it's a lot easier to play the AH than to play the game if you want to acquire gear, so people are doing it even though for the most of them playing the game would be more fun (only a small amount of people actually likes to sit infront of the AH all day and try to snipe some cheap items). The same would happen in PoE.

I disagree with you here. Some people find FFA loot more fun because if their "instance" of loot is getting crappy rolls they have a chance of snagging something decent from someone else. As such, I don't think that comparing a loot system tweak in PoE to the RMAH in D3 is a valid comparison.

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And you are approaching the FFA thing with the wrong mindset, since you don't realize that as soon as the timer is over the loot is not yours anymore so you can't call it ninja-ing or griefing if someone else picks it up.

I would agree with you here EXCEPT:
1) It is very easy to lose your stuff because of latency. I can't even tell you how many times I've been standing on my item, clicking it repeatedly, only to lose it to someone else standing right there.

2) In large parties, there is often fighting over considerably more than 1-screen of space. Thus, you might have loot drop for you and never see it, because it dropped off screen while you were fighting some other part of the mob.

If both those issues were fixed somehow, I would feel no need for an instanced/no-ninja system. But #1 just pisses me off and #2 I think needs tweaking - I think it would be great if the loot timer on an item only started when it was on-screen for that player (or maybe if it just had a slow timer - like 20 seconds or something - if it were off screen for them).

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Sickness wrote:

But I did ask for reasons, and you only gave me one, so it was the best assumption I could make.

I'm aware what you asked for. I told you at the time I was only going to give one because I was not trying to convince you to embrace FFA loot. I was only trying to show you that your still repeated claim of "no good reason" was false. The point still remains, you refuse to acknowledge that one good reason exists. You are refusing to accept reality.

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Sickness wrote:

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Panda413 wrote:

Arguing with you is pointless because inside your head exists a reality that does not exist in my head. Your brain interprets things it sees to fit inside that reality. So I could type "Duck" and your brain would read "Cow". It's impossible for anyone that doesn't share your false reality to have a rational discussion with you.

I think you are projecting.

Believe it or not, I wonder about this almost every day. Dealing with so many people like you on the internet and sometimes in real life makes me wonder if I'm the one living in an alternate reality. After spending a lot of time thinking about this, I've come to the conclusion that it has just become more acceptable in our society to hold incorrect opinions. As long as you can find one person that agrees with you, that empowers you to continue to hold on to your false beliefs. And someone like me pointing out these false opinions leads to being called out for being a "meanie" (as we've seen in this thread) -- so fewer and fewer people do it.

In this specific case, it's easy to figure out who is living in the real world vs la-la land. You are saying 2+2 doesn't equal 4. Even if I was declared medically insane, you would still be wrong. So I'm not worried.

Honestly I would rather keep the system the way it is because I've stolen I don't know how many uniques/orbs from players that should've rightfully owned it instead.

I've also lost a few orbs to other players as well, but I benefit more to this system because apparently other players are more lucky than I and I just grab all their loots since a lot of people are careless.

However, doing so makes me feel like a huge prick and would rather see a fair approach to looting. Maybe not IL, but the timers are so quick...

Why not include loot rules and give the rights to the party leader? All because of the devs' vision towards a cut-throat vibe? Meh... I wish sometimes we were given the right to simply "roll the dice" if the party wishes to.

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Panda413 wrote:

I'm aware what you asked for. I told you at the time I was only going to give one because I was not trying to convince you to embrace FFA loot. I was only trying to show you that your still repeated claim of "no good reason" was false.

I already told you that I get it. Good job avoiding the actual substance.

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Panda413 wrote:

The point still remains, you refuse to acknowledge that one good reason exists. You are refusing to accept reality.

I dunno what reality you live in where something becomes universally good just because you think so. I think it's a shitty reason. I have already explained why it's not really a valid reason at all. EVERY CHANGE TO ANY GAME EVER can be first attacked and then defended by that same reasoning. It is completely meaningless.

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Panda413 wrote:

Believe it or not, I wonder about this almost every day. Dealing with so many people like you on the internet and sometimes in real life makes me wonder if I'm the one living in an alternate reality. After spending a lot of time thinking about this, I've come to the conclusion that it has just become more acceptable in our society to hold incorrect opinions. As long as you can find one person that agrees with you, that empowers you to continue to hold on to your false beliefs. And someone like me pointing out these false opinions leads to being called out for being a "meanie" (as we've seen in this thread) -- so fewer and fewer people do it.

In this specific case, it's easy to figure out who is living in the real world vs la-la land. You are saying 2+2 doesn't equal 4. Even if I was declared medically insane, you would still be wrong. So I'm not worried.

You are not the paragon of logic you make yourself out to be. Far from it.