SEASONAL content directly in STANDARD as well as in LEAGUE

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Dxt44#4050 wrote:

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saturninecult#7044 wrote:

I think you have problems understanding that PoE is just one small part of ARPG genre.

I have hard time to understand what's that even mean. Small part of ARPG genre.... What?

ARPG is a genre, that consists of many games. PoE is one game. What is here that you don't understand?

Unfortunately this thread is not about that. No, I am not trying to turn an ARPG into an MMORPG. I am not asking for 40 player raids or world PvP or giant hub cities with hundreds of people standing around. That is MMORPG territory and it is not what I am talking about.

A bit of background. I have played Diablo, Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, Torchlight, Last Epoch and plenty more. I have been playing PoE1 since around 2014, so well over ten years in this genre. Yes, I have also played MMOs like WoW, GW2, ESO, heck, even Runescape (Classic), in early 2000s, and soulslike games such as Dark Souls and Elden Ring. None of that changes the topic here, so dragging the discussion into "you just want an MMO" is simply off topic.

PoE2 is now out and right now it feels very close to PoE1. In some parts it is nearly identical or clearly moving that way. That is why I keep asking why. Why build a second game that competes with your first one and splits the same playerbase between two almost identical products. It would make far more sense for PoE2 to lean into a different focus and actually offer something structurally new.

My suggestion is simple. Make PoE2 Standard more casual friendly and long term. Let seasonal content exist in League and in Standard at the same time, so people with limited time can use their existing characters and progress to engage with new mechanics while they are current. League can stay as it is. A fresh start race style mode for people who enjoy speedrunning the reset every four months. That part does not need to change.

As I can see from DXT44 replies, most of your posts in this thread have either been off topic or just low effort flame. At this point I am simply going to report pure flame instead of engaging with it. There is no reason to fill the thread with one line drive by comments that add nothing to the subject.

faster1306, you are also way off the mark. Wanting Standard to be more casual friendly and better for playing with friends does not magically mean I want raids, world bosses on a timer or MMO style social systems. It just means I want PoE2 to use the fact that it is a new game to offer something different from PoE1 instead of being PoE1 with minor adjustments.

The recommendations themselves are not complicated.

- Make Standard genuinely casual friendly, so people can stay on their hard earned characters instead of being forced into constant rerolls.
- Add some form of dynamic level or power scaling, so a new player can join friends in Standard and actually play with them without being carried through everything.
- Keep League as the place for the no life sprint and fresh economy for those who enjoy that style.

That way PoE1 can remain the pure league first grindfest and PoE2 can grow into something that also respects long term progression and time limited players instead of both games chasing the exact same niche.


EDIT: Now that I mention it, maybe the most satisfying ARPG for me was NOX. Crazy memories and for me personally it was more enjoyable than D1 and D2, which were a bit too dark for younger me. Still, I started with ARPGs about 25 years ago, so yes, a little bit of experience in that field.

This thing you are asking for, with time, will cause that fewer players will play leagues because start a new content with all the stuff you gathered from the previous one is certainly more appealing than a fresh start with economy reset n stuff.

Because of this there wouldnt be a solid economy for those who play leagues, less players in leagues mean less stuff to trade.
On the other hand on a standard like that, with time, economy would be so broken that new players will struggle to partecipate and compete with your god mode players.

And they will also struggle playing leagues too because trade would be less efficient due to lower player base.
Leagues will be dead on realease at some point.

You understand that what you're asking for is killing a winning formula that kept poe 1 in life for over a decade?
And you call them the same game because they share the core mechanic of every other single seasonal game out there?

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saturninecult#7044 wrote:

I agree with OP that it feels totally unnecessary to make PoE2 just a copy of PoE1, unless ofcourse the idea is to completely drop the first one after this one is done.

And it isnt a copy:
- WASD
- improved controller controls
- improved graphics
- sprint, roll
- boss fights/mechanics are actually better
- nicer crafting
- crossplay

This alone, makes it better for me... We only neec better motion vectors and better FSR. performance tweeks...

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

A bit of background. I have played Diablo, Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, Torchlight, Last Epoch and plenty more. I have been playing PoE1 since around 2014, so well over ten years in this genre. Yes, I have also played MMOs like WoW, GW2, ESO, heck, even Runescape (Classic), in early 2000s, and soulslike games such as Dark Souls and Elden Ring. None of that changes the topic here, so dragging the discussion into "you just want an MMO" is simply off topic.

I played alley cat, vigilante, digger and tetris

You do realize that economy on Standard is broken for a very simple reason, right. It is stagnant and passive. Most people just sit on their items and almost nobody trades them, because all the real trading happens in league and Standard is basically where stuff gets dumped when league ends. That is why prices are so inflated there.

On top of that you have auto buying bots snapping up any high end item that is listed above one mirror, then turning it into mirror service stock for the future. That is completely broken on its own, and it has nothing to do with Standard being allowed to have more content.

Leagues would still exist in what I am suggesting. They would simply be what they already are anyway. A place for fresh economy, fresh start, racing to endgame on a new server. That is fun and challenging for many people. It is just not something everyone wants to participate in, and not everyone has the free time to reset everything every four months. Believe it or not, some of us have a life outside PoE2.

PoE1 has a huge player base in Standard exactly because there is so much to do there. It is not only about passively receiving crumbs from the league months later. That is why I call PoE2 and PoE1 effectively the same game right now. They are both made by the same devs and PoE2 is currently being pushed into the same structural direction that PoE1 already occupies.

What I really do not understand is the hostility towards casuals. Yes, nolifers bring a lot of activity and discovery to a game. But casual players are the ones who very often bring money to the table. It is much easier to sell MTX and stash tabs to someone who has a job and stable income and plays a few hours here and there, than to someone who can no life the game all day but has very limited disposable income. I know that sounds harsh, and I am not trying to insult anyone, but from a business point of view casuals are not some worthless group to be dismissed.

WASD is a genuinely new and very welcome concept in this genre and I really enjoy it. I have not found many ARPGs that do it this well. Crossplay is also something that was bound to happen and it would have been strange if PoE2 did not support it.

Sprint and roll are a bit of a different topic. They do break some parts of the game in my opinion, especially for pure minion builds, but that is a balance discussion for another thread. Improved graphics, better boss mechanics and nicer crafting are all good natural upgrades, but those are mostly technological and design improvements, not a fundamental rethink of how Standard and league relate to each other.

PS: scaeva, stop spamming please. Reported that last useless spam-reply.

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

You do realize that economy on Standard is broken for a very simple reason, right. It is stagnant and passive. Most people just sit on their items and almost nobody trades them, because all the real trading happens in league and Standard is basically where stuff gets dumped when league ends. That is why prices are so inflated there.

you answered yourself with these simple lines. leagues need to exist to refresh your standard stash?
WHO IS GOING TO PLAY LEAGUES IF I HAVE EVERYTHING ON STANDARD, LEAGUE'S CONTENT INCLUDED?

IILU81II, I completely understand that this idea could pull some players from league into standard. The question is why that would automatically be bad. If more people actually stick with the game because standard is a viable place to play new content, that is a net gain, not a loss.

League would still be what it is now. A separate place for people who want a fresh economy, empty stash, level 1 start and the rush to endgame. That structure does not disappear just because standard also gets access to seasonal mechanics.

And no, for the many nth time, I am not suggesting to remove league. It would still have its own economy, its own stash, its own playerbase, just like it does today.

The problem from a casual point of view is simple. If you have about an hour per day to play, starting over every four months and re farming all your gear and currency is not appealing. You want to log in, see what is new, try it on your existing characters, talk to people and enjoy the game with friends without paying the reset tax every season.

Right now there is also a hard wall between people in league and people in standard. Even if you are technically on the same game, playing together is awkward, because a higher level character just steamrolls lower level areas and turns the whole thing into boosting instead of actually playing together.

That is why I keep mentioning dynamic level or power scaling. Let a high level character join lower level areas and have their power scaled down so they can actually play alongside a newer friend instead of deleting the whole screen by existing. Yes, it could be abused at first. That is what iteration and balance work are for.

PS. Using caps lock does not make your argument stronger. It just makes it harder to take it seriously.

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

League would still be what it is now. A separate place for people who want a fresh economy, empty stash, level 1 start and the rush to endgame. That structure does not disappear just because standard also gets access to seasonal mechanics.

And no, for the many nth time, I am not suggesting to remove league. It would still have its own economy, its own stash, its own playerbase, just like it does today.

Standard Player at league start: lets go with new league, fully geared ready to blast into endgame, if i want to build a new character campaign won't be a problem with my levelling setup it will done in 10 hours.

League Player: lets go new league, campaign from scratch, empty stash, new mechanics...hold on there is league content in standard too where i have all of my goodies. wtf i'll play standard.

as a result most players will keep playing standard because we have everything there and leagues will be empty or almost empty, no trade because the lack of player will be significant.
This wasnt caps locked, i hope you understand what a league cycle means for the health of a videogame because this discussion is starting to feel like explaining to flat earthers why they're worng. like any other thread of this kind.

Why do you even buy a seasonal game to complain it's seasonal??
Do you go out for dinner on a vegetarian restaurant and tell them they should cook meat too because you like the place but also like meat more than veggies??

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

The problem from a casual point of view is simple. If you have about an hour per day to play, starting over every four months and re farming all your gear and currency is not appealing. You want to log in, see what is new, try it on your existing characters, talk to people and enjoy the game with friends without paying the reset tax every season.

And the solution is simple too: Do not play seasonal games if you dont like the reset!!!


My best advice when poe 2 will go 1.0 is to not play for the first whole league, instead start your game when the first league ends.
Start your first character on standard so you get league content there as it is 1.0
From that point you no longer have to wait the league's end to play new stuff and can stack all the shit you want in standard without asking developers to remove a core mechanic of a seasonal game.

Remove = adding league's content to standard is equal to kill the league mechanic for a league game.

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