Zoom is not fun. It's loot FOMO

"

RV128I#6865 wrote:

With or without the item reduction, I personally wouldn't play a meta zoom build but only because it's not how I enjoy playing the game. I've tried a few meta builds, and it just isn't for me personally; it totally removes the engagement even though it generally makes the endgame content much much more trivial to play them.

This isn't a diss towards players who use meta builds. I personally think the over the top zoomy builds should stay in the game since when they get nerfed, my fun but trash little off meta build has a chance to get stomped into the ground :')

This is the other side effect when they nerf high damage builds. If you gut the base damage of the skill then the skill is worthless. If you nerf the scalers then other builds that use the same nodes get gutted as well. If you nerf the gear that enables it (Deepest Tower Removal Example) Then you gut tons of different builds that needed it to make low damage off meta stuff work.

The level of balance the game needs to not have outliers on either side, too much damage or too little, is just out of the realm of being realistic. I think we can all agree shrinking the window will be good but trying to slam it shut will result in a horrible experience for all builds.

"

Azimuthus#1135 wrote:

"

Change my mind.

It doesn't work that way. There is a reason why games don't have ingame cheats for example. "Just don't use it and have fun" you say. But no. If something IS in the game, it is considered by all players and devs as an important part of it and not using it makes you feel like a fool as a player.

Exactly.

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

We have already had this conversation in the other thread. You responded to me responding to someone else. Keep that in mind. I know your definition of zoom. I understand it and we have clarified it.

Now, it is not a generate unlimited divine orbs button. If it is, it is for ALL builds in the game. The rate the button is pressed is what you are upset at.

Weather you play slow and take a week to get a divine but you get one every single week or play a "zoom" build and get 10 divines a week. They are still an "unlimited divine button" You are not upset at the buttons existence. You are upset the rate some people can press it.

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

In a zoom game, you can play zoom or slow.
In a slow game, you can ONLY play slow. Zoom is not allowed.

The point of the question is a reductio ad absurdum is to highlight your logic of "If you're not forced to do it, it's not bad for the game". That was part of your response to the points made about state of the game and the zoom meta. So if that's true, then it's true for the divine button. The logic doesn't hold up.

No one is arguing that people shouldn't be able to farm faster, or that some builds shouldn't be stronger than others. You don't have to invent new arguments for me. We're making the case that you can push the "higher end" to the point of the meta & balance being worse.

That was what I was trying to convey with the hypothetical "50 screen AoE 100 million dps, 20 second map clear" builds. If you think that the only reason people don't want such builds in the game, because of the loot acquisition rate, then we have very different outlooks on what makes a game fun.

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

In a PVE game, how am I effected by a no lifer farming 500 T16 maps a day with his rarity bot following him besides trade? How has my experience in the game been altered?

You're affected by the character & monster balance, and the expectation of player power regarding that balance. No one cares if someone wants to play longer, we're talking about the immediate gameplay experience you have in combat.

On one hand you don't seem to think that balance matters for what builds which do not one-shot the screen, yet you understand balance when there are constraints put on builds that can AoE clear the screen. We should talk about that and stop fixating on the trade economy.

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

Its balanced around the high damage builds. So that results in more monster/boss HP. This is an issue for a low damage build sure.

Its balanced around the high regen with high ES defense builds. So that results in more monster/boss damage and one shots. This is an issue for low defense builds.

Its balanced around the high AOE damage builds. So that results in more zerg mechanics to rush the player. This is an issue for low AOE damage builds.

So to fix this, again, like I previously stated.... it would require and complete ground up rebalance of everything. I highly doubt that is something that will happen. Maybe over a long period of time but it will not just be like a light switch.

Okay, but let's not pretend like "it's unlikely to happen" is why we're talking about this. It's early access, and that didn't stop people from PoE1 complaining about the game being different. That's likely part of the cause for the visual clarity tanking and the adjustment toward one-click screen clearing. I can only hope that this is a balance they intent to address later.

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

You mentioned that everyone loves the campaign and endgame gets the most criticism. First, there are tons of complaints about the campaign weather it be the length, pacing, too hard and too easy comments daily, etc. So not sure where you are getting the idea everyone loves it. Endgame gets the most criticism because that's where people get to unleash their builds. They get to get to farming and juicing to make it more fun and more rewarding. The devs tried something with POE2 and as a whole it didn't hit the mark. They even said they rushed it together to get it out there right before release. The campaign was polished. End game prior to .4 promises has never been polished. So its not a fair comparison you are making.

Not saying the campaign is perfect, and I'm not sure if there is concrete poll data on this. But yes, the general sense I get from engaging with the community is that the gameplay during the campaign is a much better experience than the endgame. And I realize that endgame is in a very early stage and that we hopefully have a good update coming on Dec 12th. People also compare PoE2's campaign to PoE1's campaign and accurately note how easy PoE1's campaign is in comparison. This was part of the fun of PoE2, that it was more difficult and requires you to 'have hands'. I think a lot of people coming out of PoE1 expected more of the easy game they were accustomed to.