Zoom is not fun. It's loot FOMO

With or without the item reduction, I personally wouldn't play a meta zoom build but only because it's not how I enjoy playing the game. I've tried a few meta builds, and it just isn't for me personally; it totally removes the engagement even though it generally makes the endgame content much much more trivial to play them.

This isn't a diss towards players who use meta builds. I personally think the over the top zoomy builds should stay in the game since when they get nerfed, my fun but trash little off meta build has a chance to get stomped into the ground :')

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Foeten5639#8632 wrote:

Yeah actually. A lot of ppl have co.plained about the increase speed at tbe sacrifice of meaningful combat. Personally the " action" part of this game is what makes it uninjoyable just give us a good rpg and this game would explode in popularity. I know everyone likes to compare poe to other arpgs but all titans in the gaming industry beat others in the same catagory and other categories at the same time.

yeah but to be honest i see more action in 30 second fight with one rare pack - with rolling and carring about surrounding than in zooming. Zooming for me is like "bullying the weak" instead of action condensed in how you play - in meaningful combat they provided which doesn't exist in the end-game.

END-game is nothing else than just a copy of poe 1 and one button mashing fiesta

Some quick housekeeping before going into the specifics:
When talking about 'zoom' we are not talking about the speed your character moves, or their attack speed. We’re referring only to the speed and ease with which monsters are being cleared off the screen. We are also not talking about putting a stopper on player progression, but rather maintaining progression on a different scale.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

Why does everyone here want changes that LIMIT play styles instead of expand on them?

I won't speak for everyone, but here are my considerations.

Let's be clear about what we mean by "limit", and what we mean by "play styles"

If by "limit" we are talking about a player's ability to trivialize the game, then everyone is in favor of limits, including yourself. You would not want to trivialize the game with a skill that clears an entire map with a 50 screen wide AoE and 10 million dps. You would not like for the player to generate divine orbs in their inventory for free without limit, to trivialize currency acquisition. You would like these things to have limits.

These are 'play styles' if you like, for how someone might want to play the game. But we are all in favor of limits in principle, because we recognize that limits are what shape and define the structure of a game to create its identity. Without limits, there is no game worth playing.

So, it becomes a matter of realizing that a spectrum for limitation exists, and figuring out where those limits should be, and why. Not whether should exist in the first place. So much for limits.

If by "play styles" we are talking about characters that have so much power relative to the monsters we fight, that the combat within the game becomes utterly trivialize by that that power, then yes we are advocating for a "limit" of "play style". If you want to be more ingenuous about it, you can describe it as "creating a deeper and more refined play style environment".

You are perhaps too fixated on the, "he wants to take away my unlimited divine orbs" sense of play style limitation, to see the "all other fun styles of currency acquisition have been made obsolete by a vastly superior yet utterly trivialized method of reducing currency to one-click" aspect of play style limitation.

When 'play styles' exist which render other existing ways to play as inferior methods to achieve the same end, they become a limiting factor in and of themselves. When a 'play style' becomes a standard, it diminishes the plethora of other interesting ways that people might ought to want to play the game, if only they weren't incentivized to take the vastly superior approach.

These "play styles" do not exist in a vacuum, and must be accounted for in every aspect of the game. But to the player, they experience the existence of these play styles, as a direction which they will always gravitate toward unless they are consciously imposing self-restrictions on their own build with the recognition of being weaker relative both to the content in the game and with respect to other players who vastly outperform most other builds with their, "play style"

But I'm afraid it gets worse.

After all these considerations, if the player does still decide to progress slower relative to other players, chooses to fall behind and be noncompetitive on the market, and assiduously imposes self-restrictions on their build at each incremental phase of progression toward their goal of avoiding readily available avenues of power that would create the "trivialization play style', in the end they still need to contend with the idiosyncratic way that the game is balanced with the trivialization play style in mind. Let me explain:

Do you want to make a character that does not instantly replenish their life for infinite sustain against smaller hits? Too bad. The game has been balanced around the trivialization play style meta where the expectation is that you will recoup from small hits that frequently land with considerable damage.

Do you want to make a character which can absorb large hits? Too bad. The game has been balanced to expect that the only reasonable way to kill the player are with enormous amounts of incoming damage, often one-shots, that can kill a player capable of recuperating lost life before the next hit lands.

Do you want to make a character that has interesting and intense fights where the monsters do not die instantly, but instead you utilize different situational skills and think about how you are engaging with the enemy, and playing smart to survive the battle of attrition? Keep dreaming, because the game has been balanced around a trivialization play style meta where the screen is literally full of monsters sprinting toward you capable of evaporating your entire life pool so fast it will require a forensic team to pour over the replay to find out which projectile or on-death effect stacked with which combination of multipliers to one-shot a life pool that is assumed to regenerate just as quickly.

So yeah, we want to limit play style. Just a wee bit.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

I have seen several suggestions like loot from 30 zoom maps should equal 5 slow maps. OK, lets think this full out... HOW would you even attempt to balance that? Is it a toggle thing? AKA a hard or challenge mode thing? What stops the "zoom" build from doing the same mode but faster? There is no legitimate way to balance something like that.

Different end game activities that reward different play styles.
It's a band-aid sort of idea to the larger underlying issues, but I think it could work well to complement a better balance, even with the changes we're espousing. You don't want to limit play styles do you?

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

Another suggestion I have seen is extremely limit regen/life steal. Ok, lets think this one out... Blood mage...gone, Blood magic node.... gone, Life tap skill gems.... gone. Do we really not even think 5 seconds into the future when ideas like this enter your head?

I'll leave it to you to decide if my comments above and throughout this thread constitute 5 seconds worth of thought given to the subject, because I don't want to bore you with how my thoughts on the subject have been developing over years in PoE1 before PoE2's announcement.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

Blood mage...gone, Blood magic node.... gone, Life tap skill gems.... gone.

As we know it yes, but not gone in the literal sense. You just rebalance them to work differently while maintaining the theme. That should have taken you less than 5 seconds. But do you know what else is gone? bad one-shot / zoom meta.

Try not to be sentimental and dramatic about this. The Blood Mage isn't going anywhere. But if an ascendancy or skill has mechanics that are antithetical to better design, we reduce them or cut them. That's what balance is about.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

Most people I have seen here seem to enjoy the idea of character progression. That's good. That's what this entire game is about. BUT, if I max out my progression and still need to "work for it" to kill stuff then the game is a failure because for it to still be a challenge for a maxed out progression, its torture difficulty for someone trying to do it the first time. This will drive people away OR drive them into an even more concentrated META build.

paraphrase: "If it's not trivial later, then it's definitely too hard now!"

That's because you're thinking of it in terms of progression through exponential scaling, and "work for it" is doing a lot of work for the point you're trying to make. There are different levels of trivialization, and different proportions we can use to scale player power. Also I've stated in other posts on this thread that being able 'eventually' to get to the point where you are trivializing the content is acceptable. It's only a problem if that sort of power is obtainable in a short time for the content suited for your character's level.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

The argument about not having fun playing a zoom build makes no sense as well. DONT PLAY IT THEN. You have options. You can make the choice to slow down, use combos, parry to victory etc.

yeah, missed the point. unfortunate. Read over the posts, think about it for more than 5 seconds. Seriously in this case.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

So the only follow up to it is loot/trade. Which means you are one of two types of players. A person who wants to be rich in the game but doesn't play or trade enough to be one or a person who wants to be gifted the same levels of wealth no matter the play time or trade activity.

SSF players don't care about it. They don't trade, they don't need to run META to stay relevant with trade.

It's about game balance.
Trade economy is a smaller concern. A footnote in the peripherals.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

HC players set their own rules on their trade and normally play way more reserved and slower builds.

That's because they have a different incentivization structure. Zoom builds are more prone to dying, but dying becomes a negligible concern because their clear and farm rate more than makes up for the time lost from the occasional death.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

Based on the feedback here, you all should try one of those two modes. You don't want to be behind the market in trade and you want to play slow. Both of these modes sound like what you are all asking for. You wont see "zoom" builds in these modes without heavy time investment. You wont have to worry about being behind in trade because you want to play parry etc.

I have played HC & SSF. But I have friends that I play with, and not all of them want to play HC. It would be nice if we just let it stand that the only proposed solution is isolation and Perm-death, but unfortunately the game is balanced for rippy SC one-shots. The game plays amazing through campaign (which everyone loves btw) and the 'zoom' meta only becomes an issue in end-game, the part most people think is bad.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

In a zoom game, you can play zoom or slow.
In a slow game, you can ONLY play slow. Zoom is not allowed.

Yes and without a "generate infinite divines button" in the game you are limited to accruing currency other ways. I know that you are a big advocate of removing limitations on players and a proponent of players being disciplined enough to play the way that's most fun to them. But I'm afraid you missed the point of the thread. People still click the divine button.

Divine button is not fun, it's fomo.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

This is what you are all advocating for. Most people who play zoom builds for any of the reasons whether it be speed, fun, "easy", etc. But none of them are saying they want to remove methodical game play if that's what you want your build to do. It is always the other way around. Those who want to play slow and methodical are demanding zoom be removed. That is limiting options, not adding them.

Okay so, wrong. Zoom meta inherantly imposes a restriction on builds that do not adapt to the balance created for that meta.

The game can't be balanced both ways, not without seperate content. But you keep insisting that your unlimited divine button is just fine, all we have to do is not use it and stop telling you how you get your divines.

PoE1 has completely embraced the zoom-meta and has all the fun you could want. PoE2 has a chance to be something better, so rather than telling people to play an imbalanced HC SSF as a completely inadequate substitute for proper balance, you should try PoE1. It sounds like 'someone' isn't actually crazy about people's diversity of preference in play style.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

In a zoom game, you can play zoom or slow.
In a slow game, you can ONLY play slow. Zoom is not allowed.

All you really have to do to debunk the OP, is show that something can't be bad for the game, if nobody is forced to engage with it.

So I will submit this example:
- I think that having a "generate unlimited divine orbs" button is bad for the game, even though you don't have to use it, and I have fun using it. Saying it shouldn't exist is just a limit on how I play, when you could simply not engage with the button.

Change my mind.

"

Change my mind.

It doesn't work that way. There is a reason why games don't have ingame cheats for example. "Just don't use it and have fun" you say. But no. If something IS in the game, it is considered by all players and devs as an important part of it and not using it makes you feel like a fool as a player.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

"

The_Song#4903 wrote:

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Skellymancer#5263 wrote:

Is that true really? Do we care about loot?

If GGG tells me tomorrow: we decided that you get 1 divine per hour. Do what you want, 1 div is what you get.

What will I do according to you?

I will start cosplaying captain America and charge with a shield?

Swinging my hammer above my head for 3 seconds like a cartoon character?

And dodging, blocking, comboing?

Please...

I will go zoom zoom again.

Everyone would.

I don't even zoom zoom now.
Because it's boring as hell.
If all you do is zoop through the map with everything instantly dying, there's no actual gameplay. It's just an idler game at that point. Not worth playing.

Correct. This is your point of view based on what you find fun. There is no problem with that at all. I am glad to see someone playing builds that they enjoy. That is what it should be. Not worrying about what someone else is doing in the game. To that person you replied to, they find zoom fun so they make the choice to play that even in the artificial scenario. There are those in this thread that are advocating for removing one of the play styles thus forcing everyone to play non zoom. That is the basis of my entire argument that both styles should be allowed to play the game.

That's just it.
No game should have both styles.
Because it makes the game's balance worse, and whichever style offers slower progression inherently has its fun reduced by virtue of being outclassed by the other style.

A game should either be a zoom game, or not a zoom game, and if you want the other style you shouldn't play that game.

PoE1 should be a zoom game, where zoom builds are what you do.
PoE2 should not be a zoom game, one where zoom builds aren't even possible.

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

In a zoom game, you can play zoom or slow.
In a slow game, you can ONLY play slow. Zoom is not allowed.

All you really have to do to debunk the OP, is show that something can't be bad for the game, if nobody is forced to engage with it.

So I will submit this example:
- I think that having a "generate unlimited divine orbs" button is bad for the game, even though you don't have to use it, and I have fun using it. Saying it shouldn't exist is just a limit on how I play, when you could simply not engage with the button.

Change my mind.

We have already had this conversation in the other thread. You responded to me responding to someone else. Keep that in mind. I know your definition of zoom. I understand it and we have clarified it.

Now, it is not a generate unlimited divine orbs button. If it is, it is for ALL builds in the game. The rate the button is pressed is what you are upset at.

Weather you play slow and take a week to get a divine but you get one every single week or play a "zoom" build and get 10 divines a week. They are still an "unlimited divine button" You are not upset at the buttons existence. You are upset the rate some people can press it.

If we are both picking up acorns. And I can pick up acorns ten times faster than you can, you want me to have to wear shackles to slow down to match your rate of picking up acorns. We both want acorns. We both have the ability to grab them fast. But you want to go slow and examine each acorn. I just want to pick up as many as possible. You are upset I can get more acorns and demand I be forced to slow down. It really is this simple.

If you think a build makes the game too easy, then don't play it. It's existence only affects you in trade. You stated before that you have played SSF and HC but because of a friend you tend to not to. Ok cool. What does your friend want to play? What build? What experience level, time investment, etc do they have in the game? Why not have them play HC with you and just tell them to play super safe and slow and build tanky? I will go out on a limb and say they don't like it.

As discussed in the other thread. I am forming my opinion from the point of view of playing both dps builds and slow builds. I wont even call is zoom anymore because that is what is confusing most people here like I stated in the other thread. Each build should have a time to shine. Each play style should be able to do all content. Some things will be easier being super tanky (Sekamas to get higher honor pools) and some things will be easier being high damage (Arbiter to avoid the dumb overlapping one shots which is still in the game FYI). Died twice to that crap on my titan this league.

But all that aside, if you want to bring down damage from the builds that are clear outliers and could be borderline bugged, I am all for it. But I am not for nuking them to be nonexistent. Like I have told you before in the other thread, to get the end result of what you are wanting will require a full game rebalance. All HP, Damage, Resist, Scaling, Base Damage, Values, etc all need toned down. When that happens (IF) then we can get builds closer to each other and see where its at. But as of right now, before damage builds get gutted, all the one shots need to be removed. If not, glass cannon will still be the main builds people go for. The entire games loot principles need redone to avoid this. Speed will always be king in a game that is loot being dropped from killing monsters. It is more pulls on that slot machine. More pulls give more chances for better things. You are wanting a limit on how fast you can pull that lever. Forcing players to again play the way you want.


In a PVE game, how am I effected by a no lifer farming 500 T16 maps a day with his rarity bot following him besides trade? How has my experience in the game been altered?

So you have brought up trade/loot and you have mentioned balance.

Its balanced around the high damage builds. So that results in more monster/boss HP. This is an issue for a low damage build sure.

Its balanced around the high regen with high ES defense builds. So that results in more monster/boss damage and one shots. This is an issue for low defense builds.

Its balanced around the high AOE damage builds. So that results in more zerg mechanics to rush the player. This is an issue for low AOE damage builds.

So to fix this, again, like I previously stated.... it would require and complete ground up rebalance of everything. I highly doubt that is something that will happen. Maybe over a long period of time but it will not just be like a light switch.

You mentioned that everyone loves the campaign and endgame gets the most criticism. First, there are tons of complaints about the campaign weather it be the length, pacing, too hard and too easy comments daily, etc. So not sure where you are getting the idea everyone loves it. Endgame gets the most criticism because that's where people get to unleash their builds. They get to get to farming and juicing to make it more fun and more rewarding. The devs tried something with POE2 and as a whole it didn't hit the mark. They even said they rushed it together to get it out there right before release. The campaign was polished. End game prior to .4 promises has never been polished. So its not a fair comparison you are making.

As soon as a few streamers feel like they're not getting their dopamine hits they'll whine and GGG will cave on their design philosophy. Already happened and will continue to happen. That's what you get when you cater to the lowest common denominator.

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The_Song#4903 wrote:

That's just it.
No game should have both styles.
Because it makes the game's balance worse, and whichever style offers slower progression inherently has its fun reduced by virtue of being outclassed by the other style.

A game should either be a zoom game, or not a zoom game, and if you want the other style you shouldn't play that game.

PoE1 should be a zoom game, where zoom builds are what you do.
PoE2 should not be a zoom game, one where zoom builds aren't even possible.

If that is what the devs wanted, then why did they port over all the zerg mechanics and first major league add on was another zerg mechanics?

Side note, what builds do you play in POE2? Really curious if you partake while saying its blasphemy.

As for the slower progression inherently being outclassed and less fun... So you are basing it on pure trade then. Side note, even if there was only one build anyone could play there would still be people being outclassed by others. You need to stop comparing yourself and your character to everyone all the time if this is how you feel. Also if you do ladders or want to be the stock market player then play the builds that go with them. Its part of the META for anything.

If you nuke all high damage builds which would be gear, skill nodes, skill gems, scalers, ascendency nerfs, etc... all of it. You wont change anything. It will still be people playing the next high damage build. This will go on and on until you have only one play style left. Is that really a game you would find fun? You can only use gas arrow and can only be chalupa monk. Everyone has to play those because those are two of the absolute lowest performers. That sounds fun?

Not to mention META's cycle when the nerfs and buffs some in. Your favorite skill in the game could be bottom tier but when it gets a buff and its META, will you play it? Or will you call for its nerf like you are now? That's the honest question you need to ask yourself and be 100% truthful.

LA and Deadeye are so popular because its easy to use, fun to jet around with, gets going early, doesn't need uniques to be strong etc. Not to mention lightning is the best element to do damage with because of shock and its theme of being able to chain. I haven't played it since .1 but I'm sure I would still have a blast on it if I made one. It is just the perfect storm of everything coming together to make it great to play.


For clarity with you since I know the other person definition of zoom is actually just damage, what is yours? If LA Deadeye was the same as now but did 1/10th the damage would you be happy or still upset they can run around so fast and attack so fast?

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b_ko#7756 wrote:

As soon as a few streamers feel like they're not getting their dopamine hits they'll whine and GGG will cave on their design philosophy. Already happened and will continue to happen. That's what you get when you cater to the lowest common denominator.

I'm sorry, but what we really expect from ARPGs is the dopamine rush. This isn't a job, it's a game. In ARPGs, you play to fight, earn loot, and upgrade your equipment to become even stronger. That's the misconception you're referring to when you say streamers are crying. Streamers aren't crying; they're pointing out that the game deviates from ARPG logic at certain points.