Zoom is not fun. It's loot FOMO

sorry for bad formatting. edit*

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

You have to parse what went wrong in those iterations, from the idea you might hold in your mind about what 'engaging combat'

people were unhappy that they had to pvp with white mobs using autoattack, or in other words participate in "engaging combat".
examples of engaging combat from poe1: valdo map with 100% delirious, ghosted feared and 10% less damage per piece of gear. if you win you get a mageblood.
examples of how according to THE VISION engaging combat should have worked in poe2: you pvp with white zombies to get 2 white jackets to throw transmute->augment into them and vendor in case you did not hit great mods. its not fun and engaging in any way. and nerf fiestas tried to make the game feel this way (or very similar)

now GGG clearly stated that the pace of endgame gonna be like poe1, and with lightning spear, twister, sparks and 0.3 LA its completely clear that the game is more poe1 now. And pvping with white mobs failed

I happened to like the harder combat in 0.2 but that aside.
Okay, you've given an example of a variation where you didn't like the combat. But you ignored what I said about there being good, and bad ways to do the same type of idea. You ignored my examples of other games that have engaging combat.

I've talked a lot about the auto-attack before and think it's fine. I don't understand the hang-up people have with it, because they never explain it. They just say 'auto-attack bad', but don't really explain how it's better to use other skills instead, so I've drawn my own conclusion that they just like to see visual effects.

Your examples in PoE1 don't explain "why" you found those engaging. Was it because you could delete the boss in one-click? Because what we are calling the "lack of engaging combat" is precisely that, the thoughtless screen-wiping of mobs, and the inability to see what's going on. It's very dull.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to include item drops and crafting, which have nothing to do with the combat and are separate conversations.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

btw, why are comparsions of player retention rate "strange"?

If you really cared about player counts, do you consider that PoE1, which is much more 'zoom-oriented" having a lower count than PoE2 to be very convincing? I think you don't. And I don't either. That's why it's fallacious.

That's why I presented % of player retention, not numbers.
Poe settlers had peak online because of new audience hyped for incoming poe2. And making poe2 pvp game against white mobs is wrong. I sincerely doubt it gonna attract vast new audience

okay, PoE2 has better retention % than PoE1 too. But it doesn't matter, because it doesn't follow that this is because of a specific aspect of the gameplay. PoE2 already has attracted vast new audience. You are really dedicated to the argument from popularity aren't you.

Do you have anything to say about why one-click screen clear is good gameplay?

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

okay, PoE2 has better retention % than PoE1 too.

1) Valdo runners cannot oneshot ghosted feared with 100% delirious and 90% less damage dealt (they usually out their amulet/ring off). They need to fight them kiting dangerous bosses and consider layout. If you're interested, you can check Bigdaddy's channel. He is a great content maker and often run valdos.
2) Its not true, while greatest peak retention rate leagues like ritual and affliction held 50%+ of players till day 30, poe2 had 29% during devastating dawn of the hunt and 32% during 0.3 which is not nerf fiesta but nice content patch. Also we can take free holidays in account. still game lacks proper endgame and thats why people leave:

Also, 0.1 was fun with temporalis, tempest flurry, farming sekhema and ultimatum for loot and giga juiced maps. + overall hype. No wonder its numbers are shocking.
Afflicton and ritual stats:

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

1) Valdo runners cannot oneshot ghosted feared with 100% delirious and 90% less damage dealt (they usually out their amulet/ring off). They need to fight them kiting dangerous bosses and consider layout.
2) Its not true, while greatest peak retention rate leagues like ritual and affliction held 50%+ of players till day 30, poe2 had 29% during devastating dawn of the hunt and 32% during 0.3 which is not nerf fiesta but nice content patch. Also we can take free holidays in account:

Also, 0.1 was fun with temporalis, tempest flurry, farming sekhema and ultimatum for loot and giga juiced maps. + overall hype. No wonder its numbers are shocking.

I have no issues with temporalis. I have no issues with fast movement, or fast attack speed. I only have an issue with deleting the entire screen with one-click and not being able to see anything.

Please, let your next reply start with:
"Clearing screens of monsters with one skill is better gameplay because..."

I can't stress enough, how little anyone cares about player retention statistics, if you can't even articulate the immediate experience of why one play style is better than the other.

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

I can't stress enough, how little anyone cares about player retention statistics, if you can't even articulate the immediate experience of why one play style is better than the other.

player retention means nothing? so theres no difference between affliction loved by the community which kept 50%+ players logging in and dawn of the hunt/kalandra which were dull boring nerf fiestas with their 20%?

you want to limit people enjoying APRG if you want GGG to delete aoe and clear from poe. pvping with white monsters is boring. I could understand you if you proposed something like valdo maps/giga juiced titanics/meatsacks into poe2, which are not about clearspeed and exploding the screen, but about fighting with dangerous and rewarding monsters. Same as meatsacks from necropolis or whole archnemesis league. Now we only have a joke called wisps from dawn of the hunt which neither empower monster to a proper level nor give any loot

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

player retention means nothing? so theres no difference between affliction loved by the community which kept 50%+ players logging in and dawn of the hunt/kalandra which were dull boring nerf fiestas with their 20%?

I didn't say either of those things. I said you can't draw definite conclusions from them.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

you want to limit people enjoying APRG if you want GGG to delete aoe and clear from poe.

No I don't. I want to improve the game.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

pvping with white monsters is boring.

pressing one click to make the screen disappear is boring.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

I could understand you if you proposed something like valdo maps/giga juiced titanics/meatsacks into poe2, which are not about clearspeed and exploding the screen, but about fighting with dangerous and rewarding monsters. Same as meatsacks from necropolis or whole archnemesis league.

Thank you for supplying one possible variation of your interpretation of engaging combat encounters. Since we can maybe agree on one, I think there are more. But what I am wondering is if you can explain why one-click screen clear is more fun than a 'good' engaging combat style. (not whatever strawman example we can come up with)

Try again. Explain why specifically, one-click screen clear is something we should care about. I don't care about cherry picked player count comparisons, I don't care about specific examples. I want to see if you can distill your idea down to some fundamental concepts.

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

PoE2 already has attracted vast new audience. You are really dedicated to the argument from popularity aren't you.
Do you have anything to say about why one-click screen clear is good gameplay?

day 3 0.3:


if you wanna look at how many ppl who progressed to t15 among the first (non-casual players, most of them being poe1 community) and played build which WORK and not cause mental traumas (warrior with one handed mace for instance), look and see what they played chaos dot/spear/bow/monk hollow palm or staff. Working archetypes which are great.

and I'm not considering 0.3 with its 238k dawn of the hunt online on launch much bigger than recent poe1 launches, it only proves that a large % of poe2 audience is poe1's audience. who want fun, not nerfs

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

PoE2 already has attracted vast new audience. You are really dedicated to the argument from popularity aren't you.
Do you have anything to say about why one-click screen clear is good gameplay?

day 3 0.3:


if you wanna look at how many ppl who progressed to t15 among the first (non-casual players, most of them being poe1 community) and played build which WORK and not cause mental traumas (warrior with one handed mace for instance), look and see what they played chaos dot/spear/bow/monk hollow palm or staff. Working archetypes which are great.

and I'm not considering 0.3 with its 238k dawn of the hunt online on launch much bigger than recent poe1 launches, it only proves that a large % of poe2 audience is poe1's audience. who want fun, not nerfs

Okay so you're just trolling at this point.

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

I could understand you if you proposed something like valdo maps/giga juiced titanics/meatsacks into poe2, which are not about clearspeed and exploding the screen, but about fighting with dangerous and rewarding monsters. Same as meatsacks from necropolis or whole archnemesis league.

Thank you for supplying one possible variation of your interpretation of engaging combat encounters.

1) Necropolis meatsack, archnemesis leaguemechanic, titanic scarabs 3.25-3.27, valdo maps, Affliction juicing - one example. Ok boss. We are learning maths now.

2) 40% of people play deadeye, 10% of people play bloodmage spear/spark, slightly less ppl play monk whoes clear is also great. We have xbow which is nice too with lich/deadeye/huntress. And how many ppl play warrior? Who pvps with monsters using autoattack and extremely slow? We play zoomies because other options cause mental pain if you play them. Also, as I mentioned above (and you completely ignored me) there is NO ASPIRATIONAL CONTENT IN POE2. YOU DONT NEED TO TRADE MOVESPEED AND CLEAR FOR DAMAGE AND SURVIVABILITY if there is no hard content. And we should not make alch and go hard, we must ADD hard, challenging content.

3) As for me and all the 50%+ people who logged in day 30 Affliction, clearing screens of rewarding monsters is fun. Yes. And meaningful rewarding endgame is also fun

4) There has always been meta. In ancient 3.0+- patches 30% of ppl played necromancer spectres, meta changes. In 3.26 30% of ppl played melee berserker xdddddddd (poe1 bad and about zoomies btw), in 3.27 30% of deadeyes.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

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If your opinion is worth anything on this topic, describe why we should care about AoE screen clearing. Player numbers mean nothing to me. Read the thread title, and the initial post. People will always play the best farm builds, and people playing the most optimal play-style does not make it good for the game.

You are responding on auto-pilot and not considering any of the points that were made. This makes me believe you haven't really thought about why you have this opinion, and only care about what the correlation says we are supposed to like.