Zoom is not fun. It's loot FOMO

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

I do not agree with Ghazzy's position in this video.
There are bows, spears, staff + hollow palm, xbows and some casters like spark which aoe the whole screens of monsters. And there are slow builds, thus majority of players choose fast builds, I sent poe ninja evidence for this.
And as I mentioned above, old good HH selfcurse was even faster than nowadays KB in poe1. it was NEVER slow

Those things do exist in PoE2. Unfortunately, that's not why I linked those videos. It was just to show how PoE's speed has progressed over the years.
It was slow. You weren't playing back in Talisman league.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

hus majority of players choose fast builds, I sent poe ninja evidence for this.

That's because they are the best builds to farm. Not necessarily because they're fun.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

His argument about WoW is bad too.

I never played WoW. But it's probably the most popular MMO ever made.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

And again he said that he is against meaningful combat forced by "the vision" (hopefully its completely abandoned post 0.2) with parrying white monsters and autoattacking single white mob.

He did, and I disagree with him on that. The reason for the link was to show you how speed progressed over the years in PoE1. Not because I agree with Ghazzy on all things. I agree parrying was not implemented well. There are better ways to go about methodical combat. Clear speed is not inseparably and intrinsically linked to that specific implementation of combos.

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

It has 50k active daily users, and has been around for 25 years.

Googled it, I wouldn't trust shady dealers from 3rd party site and their stats based on "google trends" xddd

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

That's because they are the best builds to farm. Not necessarily because they're fun.

its because the pinnacle farm in poe2 is alch and go t15 maps with weak delirium oils which slightly buff mobs. the harder content we will get, the more meta gonna shift. Now in poe1 we do not invest passive tree points in movement speed or use queen of the forest or some other extreme movement speed stacking. Because both damage and survivability are needed while mapping. In poe2 you don't want to trade movespeed and clear for stats as endgame is too simple now.

Combo gameplay 100% failed. Remember 0.2 outrage? Its impossible to force people using 3-4 buttons to kill a pack of monsters. The most successful combo ability is probably ED contagion which was giga meta back in poe1 old days and very meta starter in poe2 now. 2 buttons. Another great implementation of combo gameplay (as for me) are warcries in poe1. They buff your clear, damage and survivability and you have to press them manually to get buffs. Combo gameplay? Kinda yeah, and very effective. And tons of players started slam berserker in 3.26, true combo gamers! In poe2 warcries are mediocre, and the only one I remember in meta builds is infernal cry in bleed spear bloodmage this league.


About WoW: if we multiply mob HP by x0.1 and all our damage by x0.1 nothing gonna effectively change right? It's just for simple displaying of stats/dps/HP and simple calculations, this change does not affect gameplay part in any ways

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

That's because they are the best builds to farm. Not necessarily because they're fun.

its because the pinnacle farm in poe2 is alch and go t15 maps with weak delirium oils which slightly buff mobs. the harder content we will get, the more meta gonna shift. Now in poe1 we do not invest passive tree points in movement speed or use queen of the forest or some other extreme movement speed stacking. Because both damage and survivability are needed while mapping. In poe2 you don't want to trade movespeed and clear for stats as endgame is too simple now.

That's right. People play them to do content optimally, not because they're fun.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

Combo gameplay 100% failed. Remember 0.2 outrage? Its impossible to force people using 3-4 buttons to kill a pack of monsters.

That particular iteration did.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

The most successful combo ability is probably ED contagion which was giga meta back in poe1 old days and very meta starter in poe2 now. 2 buttons.

Sure. People will generally gravitate toward the easiest play style to accomplish a task. For example, if there was a build that you could play afk, people would do that.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

Another great implementation of combo gameplay (as for me) are warcries in poe1. They buff your clear, damage and survivability and you have to press them manually to get buffs. Combo gameplay? Kinda yeah, and very effective.

Sure, many ways to do it.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

And tons of players started slam berserker in 3.26, true combo gamers!

Sure, there are a lot of different ways that we could define 'combos', and that was sort of my point earlier. It's not a surprise that players gravitate toward what will make the game easiest to play or obtain loot faster. I call these "incentives"

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

About WoW: if we multiply mob HP by x0.1 and all our damage by x0.1 nothing gonna effectively change right? It's just for simple displaying of stats/dps/HP and simple calculations, this change does not affect gameplay part in any ways

You're describing two values that have an inverse relationship. I agree with that, but not sure why you're mentioning it.

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

Sure, there are a lot of different ways that we could define 'combos', and that was sort of my point earlier. It's not a surprise that players gravitate toward what will make the game easiest to play or obtain loot faster. I call these "incentives"

so people playing ed contagion in poe2 do not have fun? you can speak for all of them?
and I don't get your point about warcries in poe1. this build was not like OP, people played it because of buffed melee + fubgun and other streamers hyped it (meta is mostly formed of hyped builds, and true powerful mechanics are often hidden till like day 4-5). Fubgun quickly rerolled to another build, though made progress while playing combo character pressing multiple buttons. Isn't it true combo gameplay?
Or you want some WoW style like gameplay: put rune on earth, active burst with 3 min cooldown, use spam ability and spenders to kill white pack? I don't think this is good for ARPG, especially giga cooldowns (look at Hammer of Gods post-nerf in poe2, it was popular ability pre-nerf and now its abandoned).

if people dont have fun they leave. and analysing feedback and retention statistics, people dislike nerf leagues which lack content. it's a fact, I can send screenshots of retention rate again if you want.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

so people playing ed contagion in poe2 do not have fun? you can speak for all of them?

Ah I can see the misunderstanding. I'll explain.
No, fun is subjective. People might have fun playing literally any style, build, or game. But what I am saying, is that people generally, usually, play a build or style because they have incentive to farm loot or progress faster. Not because they think that build is the most fun. The fun, is incidental.

For example, everyone knows that right now in PoE2, the most popular ascendancy is Deadeye, and its most popular skill is Lightning Arrow. For a combination of factors that are not entirely important (objectively good clear, easily accessible, simple, streamer hype, etc)

Isn't it strange how one of the most effective builds for clearing content and farming loot, is also the most popular one? In fact, I'm willing to bet that all the most popular builds are excellent at farming. That's not a coincidence. It's because people are not selecting these builds (primarily) based on what their preferred gameplay style is; they are choosing them based on how efficiently they will do the content.

And this is my point. A large percentage of the player base are playing LA Deadeye for its farming efficiency, not necessarily because those players think it's the most fun, play style wise.

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

And this is my point. A majority of the player base are playing LA Deadeye for its farming efficiency, not because 1/4 of the entire player base think it's the most fun, play style wise.

Its very subjective. If "effective" means most div/h so:
1) This league (3.27) streamer called ckaiba9 (pretty popular one) farmed 2 mirrors in one day on the very start by farming new uber boss. Wild huh? And his build is not top meta judging by the amount of players who play it.
2) My pilfering ring had like 400 divs + ton of expensive uniques day 2 because I farmed ultimatum, and I'm the only character day2 on poe ninja playing this version of CWS. I doubt most of people playing meta KB farmed this amount, especially taking in account I need no meta items for my build, and the most expensive things were bloodnotch+immutable day1 and new dagger which has 2% drop rate from uber boss, bought it for like 10-12 divs as soon as they appeared online. while meta players need to fight for expensive gear.

Meta is simple for new players and effective, but its not THE MOST EFFECTIVE in any way. There are a lot of strategies in this game

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

Its very subjective. If "effective" means most div/h so:

"Effective" almost always means farming loot yes.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

1) This league (3.27) streamer called ckaiba9 (pretty popular one) farmed 2 mirrors in one day on the very start by farming new uber boss. Wild huh? And his build is not top meta judging by the amount of players who play it.

We speak in generalities. In any considerable sample size, outliers nearly always exist. i.e. your example is an anecdote.

And importantly, the logic you are making in your point is called "affirming the consequent". Which means, just because it's true that builds become meta due to how efficiently they farm, does not mean that the opposite is true, that all builds that are efficient at farming become meta.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

2) My pilfering ring had like 400 divs + ton of expensive uniques day 2 because I farmed ultimatum, and I'm the only character day2 on poe ninja playing this version of CWS. I doubt most of people playing meta KB farmed this amount, especially taking in account I need no meta items for my build, and the most expensive things were bloodnotch+immutable day1 and new dagger which has 2% drop rate from uber boss, bought it for like 10-12 divs as soon as they appeared online. while meta players need to fight for expensive gear.

Same answer as above.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

Meta is simple for new players and effective, but its not THE MOST EFFECTIVE in any way. There are a lot of strategies in this game

Of course, the most popular build may not be the most effective build that is possible, or exists, because there are other factors that influence a players choice, and a major one is being aware that the build even exists, and what people are saying about it; the hype. This means that stronger builds might exist, but are not the meta either because they are too difficult to understand, too expensive to gear, or are simply unknown to most of the players.

But what you will never see, is a top meta build, which is not excellent at farming. And that is because, people are playing it for its farming capabilities, not because it is fun, in most cases.

I like fast builds because generally I'm much safer when I can clear the screen. The longer I spend with mobs and more buttons I have to press the higher chance of me taking damage and potentially losing that sweet XP.

So XP FOMO?

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

But what you will never see, is a top meta build, which is not excellent at farming. And that is because, people are playing it for its farming capabilities, not because it is fun, in most cases.

agreed, though we can conclude that for a large amount of people fun comes from loot and testing various strategies, not from some gameplay elements. or people just love clearspeed zoomies, we have a large number of instruments for this style in poe2 already. why take away fun from people? find your own fun.

I loved Affliction because I felt the progression from weak ranger with essence-crafted bow using Scourge Arrow to mega blaster TS deadeye with extreme gear. This league was fun because of both complicate and many-stage progression and loot explosions on giga wisped maps. Also build variety was high and league mechanics added some builds to the game (by new sub-ascendancy)

Current league is just boring. I made KBoC build and the top content I can do is to farm maps or scarabs with magic blight or farm fortress scarabs. its boring. no real juicing or aspirational content (im not big fan of valdos)

Same with poe2: people need content bigger than alch and go t15s. and game gonna be more interesting and more ppl gonna stay longer into the league