Make XP loss based on CURRENT map XP, not 10% of level XP

TLDR - I think it would preserve the good parts of XP-loss, while mitigating most of the negative aspects, if when dying in a map you lost XP proportional to XP earned so far in that map, but ONLY the XP from that map. This could be *tuned* to any fractional percentage of the XP earned-so-far in the current map, anywhere from 20% on the low end to 2-3x on the high end.

This would be massively better than the 10% of level XP loss we have today, because it would scale properly based on the content we are attempting.


Why?

I'm a huge fan of the XP loss on death mechanic, as it makes taking on harder content more of a strategic choice, and it prevents glass-cannon headbutting. It introduces difficulty into softcore which is fun and challenging, but not nearly as harsh as hardcore.

However, there are several issues with it, including the fact that it's punishment varies greatly depending on what level you are and how much XP you get from a single map.

When you can get 6 bars of XP in a map, losing 2 bars from a death doesn't feel like much, because you'll get that back and more by just completing one map.

However, if you are only getting 1/3 of a bar for a map, and you can lose 2 bars, then you have to do 6 maps successful for every one you die in, and that feels really harsh. This gets especially bad when a player reaches a point where their build is not keeping up, because the natural tendency is to fall back to lower tier maps, where XP gain is even lower, but the 10% XP loss remains the same. WHich feels even worse.

This is also problematic for build experimentation, as one might respond to a progression stall by experimenting with a build, and if that ends up in a death, it can set you backwards... but if your XP loss was proportional to XP from the map you attempt, then you could experiment with a consequence you can handle.

To me, it seems much more natural to balance XP loss around the question:

What multiple of my XP reward should I lose for a death?

If you think you should lose 100% of a map's XP when you die, then easy, take away 100% of the XP you earned so far during the current map when you die.

If you think it should be 1/2 of a map, then remove 50% of the XP you earned in the current map when you die.

If you think it should be 2x, then just remove 2x the XP you earned in the current map when you die (Which in most cases wont even be all the XP you could earn in that map, because something probably clapped you a few seconds in)

This would retain the XP loss mechanic, while removing the feeling that XP loss can actually set you backwards.

If you like this better than the current flat 10% XP loss (even if you don't love XP loss overall), please chime in.

Good solution, i would be fine if you lose all the xp you got in that map till you died. Working "backwards", which we have now, is too frustrating and prevents "testing your limits" cause you only run safe maps.

Good solution, if you're trying to solve a completely different problem from what xp loss is designed to do.

Xp loss is a consequence of failure, your solution is not a consequence it's just a do over.

Levels past about 90 are achievements. The fact that people have been clearing all content in the game long before 100 is evidence of that.

If you want big number, you have to work at it.

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Valsacar#0268 wrote:

If you want big number, you have to work at it.

If your definition of "working for it" is runing 1000`s of maps where you will be sure nothing can harm you and you get a bit of exp, sounds not too impressive for me.

At least in POE1 this was the way most of the people "earned" their big numbers

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Valsacar#0268 wrote:

Xp loss is a consequence of failure

Agreed, agreed.

Back to your first point, and I'm not in complete disagreement...

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Valsacar#0268 wrote:

Good solution, if you're trying to solve a completely different problem from what xp loss is designed to do.

Being that the XP loss is the consequence, they shouldn't be pouring salt in the wound by closing up the map events after one death. Gear is already abysmal for drop rates without rarity. Closing off options is just plain overkill.

If they can find a balance on quality/quantity drops for parties and scale that a bit down, as well as set some anti-bot marketing options - well, we'd be in business. Hopefully they parse both of ours as neutral sentiment and it picks some keywords out.

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Xp loss is a consequence of failure, your solution is not a consequence it's just a do over.

My solution absolutely can be a consequence... I already said, set it at 2x or 3x of your currently-earned-so-far map XP... Then it would set you backwards, it would just set you backwards proportional to the challenge you were taking on.

The current system makes the consequence *bigger* the easier (aka lower XP) the content is you are taking on, and *smaller* the harder (aka higher XP) the content you are taking on.. This seems backwards to me.

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Faroc#0285 wrote:

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Valsacar#0268 wrote:

Xp loss is a consequence of failure

Agreed, agreed.

Back to your first point, and I'm not in complete disagreement...

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Valsacar#0268 wrote:

Good solution, if you're trying to solve a completely different problem from what xp loss is designed to do.

Being that the XP loss is the consequence, they shouldn't be pouring salt in the wound by closing up the map events after one death. Gear is already abysmal for drop rates without rarity. Closing off options is just plain overkill.

If they can find a balance on quality/quantity drops for parties and scale that a bit down, as well as set some anti-bot marketing options - well, we'd be in business. Hopefully they parse both of ours as neutral sentiment and it picks some keywords out.

If they closed off nodes, which is what they originally had planned to do, I'd agree with you. The original plan was that the node would be dead (like a citadel is after failure) and you'd have to path around it.
Instead they just took away the "first time bonus" which is perfectly fine.

Even when I fail nodes I still extract value out of the second run. Distilled Emotions are awesome like that, even if the node is scrubbed their bonuses still apply (such as increased tablet drops).

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KuroSF#6521 wrote:

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Xp loss is a consequence of failure, your solution is not a consequence it's just a do over.

My solution absolutely can be a consequence... I already said, set it at 2x or 3x of your current map XP.

So, total XP of the map, by 2x to 3x the total value? The math on that could be astronomically worse than the 10% loss we're currently taking.

Depending on the size of your map, the number (% of magic/rare) or unique mobs, your atlas path, etc. you could be facing a variable, rather than fixed penalty for death.

That sounds rough - even at 1x if you factor that in.

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KuroSF#6521 wrote:

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Xp loss is a consequence of failure, your solution is not a consequence it's just a do over.

My solution absolutely can be a consequence... I already said, set it at 2x or 3x of your current map XP... Then it would set you backwards, it would just set you backwards proportional to the challenge you were taking on.

The current system makes the consequence *bigger* the easier (aka lower XP) the content is you are taking on, and *smaller* the harder (aka higher XP) the content you are taking on.. This seems backwards to me.

It seems backwards because you're wrong. The higher level you are the more xp it takes to level. Maps, even pushed as far as they can go, only go up to level 82. The higher your level the less xp you get per map and the more xp it takes to level.

10% loss at level 90 is very different from 10% loss at level 75.

In fact, the proposed solution would be MORE punishing at lower levels than the current solution. You can easily be getting more than 10% xp in a map at low levels. Go run an untainted, low levels gain MULTIPLE levels in one map.

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So, total XP of the map, by 2x to 3x the total value? The math on that could be astronomically worse than the 10% loss we're currently taking.

What I said was 2-3x of the XP earned so far in the map, not the total possible XP of the map.

I agree this could be a larger amount at low levels.. but at low levels, as you said, we are earning so much more that this isn't as much of a punishment.

Thought of differently, this is trying to "consistently have a 20-40 minute consequence for a death".. rather than the current system which gives you a non-penalty at low levels, and a potentially multi-hour penalty at high levels.

I also want to state, I'm perfectly fine with the current 10% XP penalty. I have zero issue with it.

I just see lots of people who do have issue with it, and this type of compromise seems like something that wouldn't completely destroy the value of XP penalty while softening it somewhat, so I'm curious what others thing.