NOBODY seems to understand why Poe 1 is great

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

There are inevitable things in any system, and one of them is human psychology.

apt

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

Unfortunately, with each league

There's your problem. Seasonal wipes/league/F R E S H is a mind-virus. Expanding the game with novel, quality content is better lasting design than an endless cycle of repeatedly wiping character progress.

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

Yes, I agree that Poe has always had different categories of players and different points of view

there will always be dissatisfied people.

I think there have always been 3 categories in poe:

those who experiment
those who play "normally"
those who break the game

I really, REALLY loved the experimentation in poe 1

it's like a start of your own rocket. Yeah, I have to admit my point of view is very niche here, but damn... there will be nothing like this anywhere else

you're right to break it down to these 3. in fact i really love that you like experimentation. me too.

but the thing that i ve been trying to communicate with you is that POE1 evolved from a game where you could do exactly what you mentioned, and ended up into a place where if you dont clear a checklist of build requirements, your build is bad.

i've always been careful not to use the term meta, but instead hyper efficient builds. to succeed in games like poe1 you need to be hyper efficient.

why? simply put is the game ballooned up in scope.

back when the game was still new, players were pushing their builds. achieving 100k dps wa such an accomplishment. but not only that the best thing is their builds were "endgame viable". you could go bonkers and be a warrior with zombies supporting you. HIGHLY UNEFFICIENT? YES it was stupid but you could do that.

now in order to actually do all the content in the game you need 1-10 million dps at bare minimum. capped resists and a butt ton of EHP and movespeed and preferably your attacks have a large aoe.

doing your own thing rarely works. i personally did my own thing. my main uses ALL UNIQUES. with the exception of rare jewels to help with my resists. i freeze, shock and poison enemies with my echoforge. i love my build but i know my limitations. each league i would make tweaks. it went from struggling to kill pinnacles. to struggling to kill maven invites, to struggling to kill the feared.

currently ive done all that, almost cleared all t17 bosses, but i know i cant clear uber pinnacles. i've always been content because doing my own thing i have to set my expectations right.

and god damn i had a lot of fun. alot of pride and accomplishment. breaking my barriers. i used to be stuck at 83/84 for the longest time. a hard wall. then 91. then 95 was my wall. then 99. and finally i reached 100.

so yeah i do know how it feels to search up various different jewels on pob, theorycrafting etc.

i do know how awesome it feels when you can push your own build rather than following others.

people like us are inquisitive. we do research and dont want to let people tell us how to do things.

which is slightly ironic because i m giving you the info on how poe1 became how it is and how its actually bad for people like us but you dont see it.

to use your rocket analogy.

poe1 is a game where the devs want you to get to the moon. thus you need to spend a lot of resources to get there. if you follow the instruction manuals, you could get to the moon and you would need a lot of resources either way. but if you did your own thing 1000001 things wrong could happen and it would be a miracle if you ever get to the moon or even get close to it.

instead, if everything was scaled down, the game could be where all you had to do is climb a mountain. immediately this goal becomes feasible. you dont need to build a rocket. in fact, you COULD if you wanted to. or you could walk. or you could build a helicopter. or build a bike. this is the type of creativity that i like.

you will never get this in poe1 as the moon is simply too high for most people.

based on observation ggg seems to not want to raise the requirements in poe2 to be as high as the moon but keep it closer to a mountain.

shaper slams are huge. why are they huge? they're huge because ggg did not nerf players. players kept getting stronger and the only way to give those players a challenge is to make it big. it comes at a cost where the barrier of entry is all players need to have movement skill or high movespeed.

with this requirement ggg then has to make more things such as ground degens/slows etc to further challenge the players. all this is a never ending arms race where the ones who lose are the "casual players". as an experimenter myself i would even say experimenters lose out a huge lot. since the game scales exponentially, every choice you make needs to scale exponentially.

as i mentioned before. history is important. all this happened because ggg needed money and needed players to keep supporting them. they were VERY afraid that whenever they nerf, players would quit.

and this is why i say poe1 is a happy accident. because even tho the powercreep has scaled to the moon. many people DO get to the moon. many people ARE Near the moon. and many people love poe1.

i myself have a long history with poe1.

as much as i acknowledge that POE1 is arguably the greatest diablo like to exist in 10 years, path2 simply reminded me what poe1 COULD have become.

if ggg only made limits, nerfed players hard etc. they could make the game very engaging and without players just finding ways to multiply their damage.

look at path 2. why are there no monsters that can do the shaper slam? the answer is because ggg carefully crafted path2 in a way that players simply cant run or react to a huge ass attack like the shaper slam. huge aoe attacks usually are telegraphed and you can get out of the way. dangerous attacks that are come out more quickly can be dodge rolled.

all this is possible only because of the limits ggg imposed in path2. if a player could get 50movespeed. ggg would be forced to make aoe's bigger.

if a player can have 20k hp, ggg would be forced to find ways for enemies to slam at 21k damage.

if you did 1million dps and the boss has 100k hp, ggg would be forced to make the boss have 50million hp.

but if instead, ggg found out why certain people are achieving that via unintended interactions or bugs. ggg could nerf/rework them and they wouldnt need to do all that.

i do realize that there are a few overperforming builds on path2 right now.

i m pretty sure ggg is very likely gonna nerf them. but its near holiday season. we'll have to wait and see.

i will tell you this. POE1 IS A GREAT GAME regardless. you dont need to make a post saying people dont understand why. the reasons you gave are actually highly subjective. in any case, the most important thing is you love poe1 a huge lot. many people do.

you know assuming that a game is great is highly subjective. I hated POE1 it was a hilarious jumbled mess of scotch taped on mechanics in order to add depth in the mechanics via sheer force.

Bad game, bad community, not friendly to new players, prides itself on punishment to "git gud." POE1 was no Super Mario or Diablo, it was an clutster fuck fever dream that confused even seasoned gamers. There's a reason the player base has dropped off by HALF in just a week of the game being open and people even paying for access. POE1 players are actively chasing off the new players with their arrogance and hatred. POE will go down as a toxic, life stealing game like League of Legends. Populated by try hards who have a miserable reality so they go to POE where they feel superior and can shit on others the same way they are shit on in real life on a daily basis. There's a reason POE2 has HALVED it's player base in a week. They're catering to such a small audience it's doomed to be as irrielilevant as POE1 in the gaming world.

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joevw007#4335 wrote:

you know assuming that a game is great is highly subjective. I hated POE1 it was a hilarious jumbled mess of scotch taped on mechanics in order to add depth in the mechanics via sheer force.

Bad game, bad community, not friendly to new players, prides itself on punishment to "git gud." POE1 was no Super Mario or Diablo, it was an clutster fuck fever dream that confused even seasoned gamers. There's a reason the player base has dropped off by HALF in just a week of the game being open and people even paying for access. POE1 players are actively chasing off the new players with their arrogance and hatred. POE will go down as a toxic, life stealing game like League of Legends. Populated by try hards who have a miserable reality so they go to POE where they feel superior and can shit on others the same way they are shit on in real life on a daily basis. There's a reason POE2 has HALVED it's player base in a week. They're catering to such a small audience it's doomed to be as irrielilevant as POE1 in the gaming world.

I see you are smoking a lot of Hatred. Hatred got nerfed in poe1 just FYI!

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Perq#4049 wrote:

poe1 is far from great. It is fun in concept but it was ruined by constant feedback from player to make it faster and easier.

In its current state you can pick literally any skill and blast through acts, one-shotting everything and killing act bosses before they finish their entry animation.
It is still difficult to new players, yes, but in general it is a very easy game for anyone who understands how it works. And all of this complexity really boils down to repetitive same-old cycle that most veterans are bored with.
And truth that many players would rather not hear is that you can be really good in poe1 without really understanding much of the mechanics. Just grab FOTM build and blast through without understanding what you're really doing because you can gear/build check 99% of the game.


What poe2 brings is the difficulty and actual complexity some people want. It is actually difficult and requires far more engagement into its systems to get anywhere.
People who are new to poe1 have REALLY hard time grasping the second one and that is understandable. What is not is asking to make it poe1 again, simply because instead of learning it, they want to be good at it from get go.

The dude is arguing that skills being balance and usable in poe1 is a bad thing. That is called build diversity.
Thing Poe2 will never have with his horrible gem requirement, spells tied to weapons, unique use of support gem and few numbers of them.

These guys are playing a PoE1 with sideweel. You are little girls, nobody forced you to zoom in poe1, yet you are force to 1 gameplay in poe2. You just are horrible players without brain that need someone to clean their arse after they took a sht.
You have acces to about 0 skill and 0 stuff during all of campaign. And among these skills 2 are usable on packs 1 on bosses. Pathetic game, pathetic community. I have more respect for Torchlight infinite or diablo immortal players than PoE2 copers.

Don't forget to dodgeroll yourself to the circus after this one, frky clown.

half peak is not concerning for them probably. They won't, but if they maintained 300k throughout early access jonathon rogers would probably be able to demand oral satisfaction from every new zealander and by law they would have to give it.

They haven't had anything this exciting since lord of the rings.

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epiphase#4568 wrote:

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Perq#4049 wrote:

poe1 is far from great. It is fun in concept but it was ruined by constant feedback from player to make it faster and easier.

In its current state you can pick literally any skill and blast through acts, one-shotting everything and killing act bosses before they finish their entry animation.
It is still difficult to new players, yes, but in general it is a very easy game for anyone who understands how it works. And all of this complexity really boils down to repetitive same-old cycle that most veterans are bored with.
And truth that many players would rather not hear is that you can be really good in poe1 without really understanding much of the mechanics. Just grab FOTM build and blast through without understanding what you're really doing because you can gear/build check 99% of the game.


What poe2 brings is the difficulty and actual complexity some people want. It is actually difficult and requires far more engagement into its systems to get anywhere.
People who are new to poe1 have REALLY hard time grasping the second one and that is understandable. What is not is asking to make it poe1 again, simply because instead of learning it, they want to be good at it from get go.

The dude is arguing that skills being balance and usable in poe1 is a bad thing. That is called build diversity.
Thing Poe2 will never have with his horrible gem requirement, spells tied to weapons, unique use of support gem and few numbers of them.

These guys are playing a PoE1 with sideweel. You are little girls, nobody forced you to zoom in poe1, yet you are force to 1 gameplay in poe2. You just are horrible players without brain that need someone to clean their arse after they took a sht.
You have acces to about 0 skill and 0 stuff during all of campaign. And among these skills 2 are usable on packs 1 on bosses. Pathetic game, pathetic community. I have more respect for Torchlight infinite or diablo immortal players than PoE2 copers.

Don't forget to dodgeroll yourself to the circus after this one, frky clown.

Oohhhh, its so cute. This little guy who played 2 characters and never done Cruel Lab on HC is telling me how bad I'm. Or Maven XD Or half of the game really, and yet talks like a total boss, calling us clowns.

I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously. Newbies like you who think they're hot shit because they read a build guide and then spent thousand hours playing one character always make me laugh.

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Perq#4049 wrote:

poe1 is far from great. It is fun in concept but it was ruined by constant feedback from player to make it faster and easier.

In its current state you can pick literally any skill and blast through acts, one-shotting everything and killing act bosses before they finish their entry animation.
It is still difficult to new players, yes, but in general it is a very easy game for anyone who understands how it works. And all of this complexity really boils down to repetitive same-old cycle that most veterans are bored with.
And truth that many players would rather not hear is that you can be really good in poe1 without really understanding much of the mechanics. Just grab FOTM build and blast through without understanding what you're really doing because you can gear/build check 99% of the game.


What poe2 brings is the difficulty and actual complexity some people want. It is actually difficult and requires far more engagement into its systems to get anywhere.
People who are new to poe1 have REALLY hard time grasping the second one and that is understandable. What is not is asking to make it poe1 again, simply because instead of learning it, they want to be good at it from get go.

Nah, PoE 2 doesnt bring dificulty and much less complexity, in fact it lost most of it´s depth, the passive tree is bland af and kinda forcfes you to stay in your general starting area because now you need a massive ammount of points to travel, each skill being fixed to a single weapon kills another big layer of depth, 99% of the uniques dont have HP and while in PoE 1 you could build around with more hp in the tree, here you cant, and you really need that HP making them even worse, barely anyone is using uniques to fuel crazy builds, so ye the game lost most of it´s depth, at the moment it´s shallow as hell, uninteresting, and on top of that it´s a hiking simulator.

I hope they fix some of the issues, but some of them are not really solvable now.

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

In Poe 1, no one forced you to play on a zoom-zoom build with a billion damage, on the most popular skill from the guide on YouTube. You forced yourself. In this PvE game, for some reason, there is an insane competition, which even I feel every league start. Whether you admit it or not, but in Poe 1, people played on "absurdly strong builds" for this very reason.

Except....this isn't quite true and you know it. Sure, no one exactly took your hand and told you that you HAD to create a specific build, but the game over the course of years was heavily balanced AROUND such builds. Drop rate of orbs, crafting odds, enemy health and damage, map mods, etc. were all adjusted based on the TOP performing builds, not the middle or the bottom.

To be successful with "random" builds required a great deal of experience and knowledge about the game and what "works". Sadly, a very very small portion of the playerbase actually has that requisite experience. So they followed builds guaranteed to work because there was no other avenue for them to truly learn. Their cobbled together builds just....failed.

I am someone who did NOT follow the meta much, and was perfectly fine operating at a slower speed....but I knew that I was far too slow and could feel the drag of the progression loop, especially in a league time-limited setting.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

In Poe 1, no one forced you to play on a zoom-zoom build with a billion damage, on the most popular skill from the guide on YouTube. You forced yourself. In this PvE game, for some reason, there is an insane competition, which even I feel every league start. Whether you admit it or not, but in Poe 1, people played on "absurdly strong builds" for this very reason.

Except....this isn't quite true and you know it. Sure, no one exactly took your hand and told you that you HAD to create a specific build, but the game over the course of years was heavily balanced AROUND such builds. Drop rate of orbs, crafting odds, enemy health and damage, map mods, etc. were all adjusted based on the TOP performing builds, not the middle or the bottom.

To be successful with "random" builds required a great deal of experience and knowledge about the game and what "works". Sadly, a very very small portion of the playerbase actually has that requisite experience. So they followed builds guaranteed to work because there was no other avenue for them to truly learn. Their cobbled together builds just....failed.

I am someone who did NOT follow the meta much, and was perfectly fine operating at a slower speed....but I knew that I was far too slow and could feel the drag of the progression loop, especially in a league time-limited setting.

My gf is slow as hell, doesnt understand most of the deep mechanics in PoE 1 and has several 36 challenge leagues, so youre wrong.