NOBODY seems to understand why Poe 1 is great

There are inevitable things in any system, and one of them is human psychology. In this case, if you read the title of the post, it is meta.

In Poe 1, no one forced you to play on a zoom-zoom build with a billion damage, on the most popular skill from the guide on YouTube. You forced yourself. In this PvE game, for some reason, there is an insane competition, which even I feel every league start. Whether you admit it or not, but in Poe 1, people played on "absurdly strong builds" for this very reason.

There is no point in making your own build when it is still "worse" than Fubgan's archer. Most Poe 1 players unironically think that in Poe 1 90% of skills are unplayable with the exception of those shown in guides on YouTube. The truth is that ANY skill in Poe 1 is more than playable, it just does not kill 10 screens in 1 second, because the balance has not been done and never will be.

Let me give you an analogy: all the depth of poe builds is science, and streamer builds in it are a nuclear bomb. A nuclear bomb exists only because the science is deep enough and we have enough opportunities to create it. Does this mean that a nuclear bomb is useful for the future of humanity? (in a sense, yes, but not in this case) After all, when the war starts, EVERYONE will feel obliged to use it. And in poe 1, for some reason, this war goes on without stopping, if we are talking about soft-core.

Now Poe 2 is coming out, and I feel as if I was limited not by a nuclear bomb, but by the possibilities of science itself. I can no longer even make a machine gun, only a stick.

I want to say that the happiest people in poe 1 are those who played on SSF. These people essentially get to play Binding Of Isaac with a thousand synergies and endless uniqueness of runs. Poe 1 is an incredible roguelike precisely because of the depth of the game, but what good is that depth if 90% of players will complete everything in the most efficient way? Why would you want to play a roguelike efficiently? Isn't the fun of a roguelike about the origin of an interesting build, not the speedrun? Answer me.

Unfortunately, with each league in Poe 1, SSF players are losing opportunities. Think about it: the people who suffer the most in the game are the ones who play the game in the most interesting way and enjoy the main advantages of this game. Unfortunately, with each league, they were deprived of more and more opportunities, because the depth of the game is abused by minmaxers and optimizers. Honestly, I never understood - why would anyone farm 500 mage blood - to satisfy their ego? What is the interest in having 500 mirrors in the inventory, instead of coming up with your own build with an unpopular ability? I think there's a reptilian brain at play here.

If you want to achieve something in life, it’s not for me to tell you what to do, but personally, I chose to write music rather than turn my favorite game into an endless race with ghosts.

Unfortunately, no one seems to understand the problem, so in Poe 2 we don't have a nuclear bomb limitation, we have a science limitation. It takes away your scaling capabilities, and the people who will suffer the most from this are people like me - people who were just interested in seeing the synergy of 200 unique items combined in the strangest way. Unfortunately, both Poe 1 and Poe 2 were not balanced for us.

It's as obvious and expected as it is ironic - that wide opportunities make wide abuse, and abuse leads to fewer opportunities, which eventually leads you to D4, where you have no choice. I really hope that Poe 2 doesn't suffer the same fate, or at least that the base game itself can't be limited to the point where you actually REALLY don't have a choice anymore because the game would become unplayable no matter what you experiment with.

P.S. - at the moment Poe 2 has all the prospects, and I don't think the game will die. It's about providing balanced opportunities, where you can make weird builds, and at the same time you can't break the game. In practice, this should equalize everyone's abilities, but in fact, this is of course a utopia.

poe1 is far from great. It is fun in concept but it was ruined by constant feedback from player to make it faster and easier.

In its current state you can pick literally any skill and blast through acts, one-shotting everything and killing act bosses before they finish their entry animation.
It is still difficult to new players, yes, but in general it is a very easy game for anyone who understands how it works. And all of this complexity really boils down to repetitive same-old cycle that most veterans are bored with.
And truth that many players would rather not hear is that you can be really good in poe1 without really understanding much of the mechanics. Just grab FOTM build and blast through without understanding what you're really doing because you can gear/build check 99% of the game.


What poe2 brings is the difficulty and actual complexity some people want. It is actually difficult and requires far more engagement into its systems to get anywhere.
People who are new to poe1 have REALLY hard time grasping the second one and that is understandable. What is not is asking to make it poe1 again, simply because instead of learning it, they want to be good at it from get go.

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

P.S. - at the moment Poe 2 has all the prospects, and I don't think the game will die. It's about providing balanced opportunities, where you can make weird builds, and at the same time you can't break the game. In practice, this should equalize everyone's abilities, but in fact, this is of course a utopia.

What balance?

I have two ammunition skills that somewhat work. And two grenade skills, one of which got nerfed in half. (not that it wasn't needed)

Everything else is complete garbage.

What balance?

How are they balancing the 5 dps balista? +21% damage on 5dps is 6 dps.

Of course I will push for the meta and clear screen with 1 button.
Everything else is GARBAGE.

You can add 210% buff, and still will be garbage.

How stupid you have to be, to have 0% of your players use specific skills, and buff it with such numbers?

Btw the other buffs are also crazy.
+150% , 3 times more bolts, etc...

IT IS ALL GARABGE.

No one has used them. No one will use them.

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Perq#4049 wrote:

poe1 is far from great. It is fun in concept but it was ruined by constant feedback from player to make it faster and easier.

In its current state you can pick literally any skill and blast through acts, one-shotting everything and killing act bosses before they finish their entry animation.
It is still difficult to new players, yes, but in general it is a very easy game for anyone who understands how it works. And all of this complexity really boils down to repetitive same-old cycle that most veterans are bored with.
And truth that many players would rather not hear is that you can be really good in poe1 without really understanding much of the mechanics. Just grab FOTM build and blast through without understanding what you're really doing because you can gear/build check 99% of the game.


What poe2 brings is the difficulty and actual complexity some people want. It is actually difficult and requires far more engagement into its systems to get anywhere.
People who are new to poe1 have REALLY hard time grasping the second one and that is understandable. What is not is asking to make it poe1 again, simply because instead of learning it, they want to be good at it from get go.

The problem is that people don't want to learn. The fact that in Poe 1 you can take someone else's build and beat the game with your eyes closed is not Poe 1's fault. It's the community that optimizes the game. If newbies were banned from YouTube, you'd be surprised how interesting Poe 1 actually is to figure out. Yes, it's not perfect, but it's a game that really rewards you for your knowledge.

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Skellymancer#5263 wrote:

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

P.S. - at the moment Poe 2 has all the prospects, and I don't think the game will die. It's about providing balanced opportunities, where you can make weird builds, and at the same time you can't break the game. In practice, this should equalize everyone's abilities, but in fact, this is of course a utopia.

What balance?

I have two ammunition skills that somewhat work. And two grenade skills, one of which got nerfed in half. (not that it wasn't needed)

Everything else is complete garbage.

What balance?

How are they balancing the 5 dps balista? +21% damage on 5dps is 6 dps.

Of course I will push for the meta and clear screen with 1 button.
Everything else is GARBAGE.

You can add 210% buff, and still will be garbage.

How stupid you have to be, to have 0% of your players use specific skills, and buff it with such numbers?

Btw the other buffs are also crazy.
+150% , 3 times more bolts, etc...

IT IS ALL GARABGE.

No one has used them. No one will use them.

According to some game design wisdom that not everyone is aware of - sometimes a balance change is not a change in the numbers of an ability, but a change in the way the ability works. Unfortunately, many developers are not aware of this, but yes - simply tweaking the % is pointless if the skill itself is inconvenient

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

According to some game design wisdom that not everyone is aware of - sometimes a balance change is not a change in the numbers of an ability, but a change in the way the ability works. Unfortunately, many developers are not aware of this, but yes - simply tweaking the % is pointless if the skill itself is inconvenient

inconvenient is understatement for their incompetent approach.

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Skellymancer#5263 wrote:

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

According to some game design wisdom that not everyone is aware of - sometimes a balance change is not a change in the numbers of an ability, but a change in the way the ability works. Unfortunately, many developers are not aware of this, but yes - simply tweaking the % is pointless if the skill itself is inconvenient

inconvenient is understatement for their incompetent approach.

In Poe 1, as I understand it, it was due to technical difficulties. Changing the animation of an ability in Poe 1 is much more difficult than in Poe 2, because in Poe 1 you do not have a unified player model rig, and you need to make 6 animations for 6 characters, which is prohibitively expensive. From this point of view, I can understand why some abilities in Poe 1, being clearly poorly designed in terms of animation and overall feel, were never changed, or only changed numerically. It's just too much trouble

i ll continue here rather than the other thread.

i actually see you have good points. to me its more of 2 people able to have 2 opposing points but both are not wrong given the circumstances.

even in the previous post. i can see where you're coming from but i disagree with it because of how i mentioned about poe1's history and what led it to become the game it is today.

i would label poe1 more of a happy accident that poe2 owes it's current success to.

poe1 is actually a disaster from a balance pov. theres no way to properly balance the game and i think the devs themselves kinda "gaveup" lol.

tho i would say one major flaw with your opinion is you unfairly mentioned "ssf players enjoy it the most".

different people enjoy different things. maybe you like ssf more but doesnt mean i would enjoy ssf.

tbh poe2 gives a lot of ssf feel and you can get far without trading. just that trade makes it easier and faster to get to where you want to be.

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exsea#1724 wrote:

i ll continue here rather than the other thread.

i actually see you have good points. to me its more of 2 people able to have 2 opposing points but both are not wrong given the circumstances.

even in the previous post. i can see where you're coming from but i disagree with it because of how i mentioned about poe1's history and what led it to become the game it is today.

i would label poe1 more of a happy accident that poe2 owes it's current success to.

poe1 is actually a disaster from a balance pov. theres no way to properly balance the game and i think the devs themselves kinda "gaveup" lol.

tho i would say one major flaw with your opinion is you unfairly mentioned "ssf players enjoy it the most".

different people enjoy different things. maybe you like ssf more but doesnt mean i would enjoy ssf.

tbh poe2 gives a lot of ssf feel and you can get far without trading. just that trade makes it easier and faster to get to where you want to be.

Yes, I agree that Poe has always had different categories of players and different points of view, even within the company. So I expressed myself incorrectly. Rather, I wanted to say that SSF players, theoretically, reveal the game's potential to the fullest, because they are forced to interact with all the game's mechanics and adapt to them, as well as use them in a creative way. It's one thing to knock out HOWA on SSF and remake a build for him - another thing to ignore 99% of the mechanics when playing Lightning Arrow by Destroyer99. In terms of pleasure, both people are probably equal, but balancing in favor of the latter completely kills the gaming experience of the former.

Unfortunately, in game design this is called the "cursed problem" - audience overlap (there is a good lecture on GDC) and usually there is no solution to such problems at all. You can only sacrifice part of the audience by fundamentally changing the design, but there will always be dissatisfied people.

I think there have always been 3 categories in poe: those who experiment (like Mathil), those who play "normally" (like Zizaran), and those who break the game (like Fubgun). I have always been first category.

It seems like the second category (Ziz) has won this race, and that poe 2 is mostly aimed at those people. It's a happy medium in some ways, but it requires restrictions that will kill a lot of the fun for people like me.

I really, REALLY loved the experimentation in poe 1, where you try to find the perfect Lethal Pride and stuff it into a weird combo with three other stones. It looks like gold prospecting, but in reality you are looking for undiscovered game technology.

When people first found aurastakers in delirium, I was just so excited about the look of it. Not because it's a strong build, but because it's a clockwork, you know. You have 50 sockets, you have to calculate everything, balance everything, and when it launches, it's like a start of your own rocket. Yeah, I have to admit my point of view is very niche here, but damn... there will be nothing like this anywhere else