Please understand why Dark Souls succeeded before copy its style

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just_dont#6539 wrote:

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Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

Bosses random one shot mechanics which you can't build defenses to avoid... check!!!

Bosses don't have "random one shot mechanics". Not to mention souls-like game don't have it either.

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Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

All monster get reborn the moment you die and you have to re-kill them... check!!!

Those aren't even the same monsters. The map itself gets repopulated, it also does that just when enough time passes. Some form of repopulation is common for ARPG, and PoE2 is not an exception.

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Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

Game gives you the bare minimum of power to make the game "beatable"... check!!!

This is wrong both for souls-likes and for PoE2.

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Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

The only playstyle viable is dodge roll and kite all day... check!!!

This is wrong both for souls-likes and for PoE2.

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Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

The game tries to keep the players playing with frustration and time wasting instead of investing in their fun... check!!!

This is wrong both for souls-likes and for PoE2.

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Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

The game attracts the massive majority of the "git gud" and "skill issues" army on release making the community unbearably toxic and shitty to be in... check!!!

That's not relevant at all to game's genre which we are discussing.

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Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

So yeah, care to beat my argument????

You have to start by having one.

One Person played POE2 One didn't. He has a very valid argument.

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Raoul9753#2068 wrote:

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kdql#5135 wrote:

4. boss is hard and defeating them reward you new and unique item/ability/mechanic instead of 2 blue and 1 token (may I get some unique relevant to my class while progressing the campaign in anyway?)

Eh, lets be real, most boss weapons in Dark Souls were shit and spend the rest of the game gathering dust in your inventory, unless you were on a challenge run for with exactly that weapon...

I can barely remember what weapons you got for each soul...

Not trying to say that they are OP here (although some of the boss weapons are really good)...But try to compare this game's boss drop. I just think it's a very different approach.

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kdql#5135 wrote:

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Raoul9753#2068 wrote:

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kdql#5135 wrote:

4. boss is hard and defeating them reward you new and unique item/ability/mechanic instead of 2 blue and 1 token (may I get some unique relevant to my class while progressing the campaign in anyway?)

Eh, lets be real, most boss weapons in Dark Souls were shit and spend the rest of the game gathering dust in your inventory, unless you were on a challenge run for with exactly that weapon...

I can barely remember what weapons you got for each soul...

Not trying to say that they are OP here (although some of the boss weapons are really good)...But try to compare this game's boss drop. I just think it's a very different approach.

It is a matter of you know exactly what you are getting for a boss in the souls games, with later one making it so you can get souls instead of the weapon meaning you always gain something useful and relevent for your level. Even with the loot buff here, you can't guarantee something useful and the 1 shard from disenchanting a useless yellow for your effort feels more like an insult than anything else.

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kdql#5135 wrote:

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nnilfoest#6766 wrote:

My personal take is all about hard but fair. I die to Geonor only once, but because I have a habit of over defense (stack life early than dmg) Most of big attack I see in PoE 2 is not fair in my opinion. Specially for ARPG and campaign on first loop where player don't have tool of the trade yet.

Yes in those games at least for the beginning they try to hint you what you need, from environmental element or npc talks, or just put the tools you need for the boss fight along the way you crawling to the boss room (you might miss but it's there). This game just assumes you know you need cold res for the first act boss and there's no way to make sure you can get that.

edit: format

I also talk in other thread about this too. I like how good dev add hidden guide to assist player but not point it out plainly. Like Megaman timer block that get to higher area before slowly add up leading to endless pit room. Or planty of antidote before reaching the poison zone. Sometime its just so smooth and well fit to the lore or environment that player have to very keen to notice it's an assist.

In PoE 2 defense, Act 1 do add tiny bit of cold res at the start, but at the start... that's too far.

My example is to add sapphire ring to Geonor's room. It's always have a chest. Drop a sapphire ring with tiny lore in it. You can make it guarantee rare for reward exploration since it side room. Now we talking about "hidden guide" (If we fall back to diablo 2 era, you can make it Magic in the first run and rare in cruel run too.

Still, my point still stand that Geonor's attack need a tweak to be more fair, so do all other boss :v

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nnilfoest#6766 wrote:

Not every boss is a beefy like Flame Giant. Other boss are quick to kill on gear. In ER it even faster since you can overlevel, use summon or use their weakness. If player can keep dmg the boss, they go down quick. The reason fight last long because they can't find opening or keep getting hit.

...

It's almost on par with trial and error game like IWNBTG, mario neko or something like that. Glad that it's don't fall that hard... yet.

ER's health values bloat up significantly throughout its run. Fire Giant is probably the most infamous example, but he's also just one of many other fights like the dozen of copy-paste dragon fights that take a while to finish but are by no means very difficult.

As far as Act 1 and Geonor are concerned, a comparison to IWBTG is nigh delusional. IWBTG is about memorizing a specific script of actions that seem random, so it's "cruel" to learn since you can't really improvise. PoE 2 gives you CC, strong shields, and a universal dodge roll as some basic tools to generically avoid damage.

Geonor has incredibly clear tells for each of his attacks, and he has standard patterns. In human form, he calls out his stabs / projectiles. As a wolf in phase 1, his summons and jump attack with side missiles are both marked on the ground. His slams are telegraphed by stretching before leaping. His monologuing even tells you when to dodge his leaps during the ice cloud phase (about one beat after)!

I'm tired of "trial and error" being used to describe the natural progression of learning boss mechanics. Yes you'll probably die to an ACT BOSS as you're LEARNING WHAT IT DOES. Geonor is incredibly consistent and telegraphed. There's literally nothing unfair about him because you always have a valid movement option to counter his pattern.

It is pretty clear the souls-like genre been one of the sources of inspiration and direction for PoE 2; among a long list of many other actions games. You deny that is just bizarre, if you look at only the changes from PoE 1 to 2 you will find the elements to make a soulsgame.


GGG has stepped up to take on the challenge of taking a purist game created around a very singular inspiration in a very stagnant genre and making it something new. Why not with ideas taken from some of the greatest action games of all time? Why not be greedy and want the best of both worlds? Wont be easy though.

I agree with OP in a lot of ways, my biggest thing is that regardless of what vision GGG has for this game, which is not something I decide I think that currently there is ALOT of work to be done integrating these new inspirations. Inherently many of the new elements are at very much odds with the PoE 1 ARPG in big and small ways, it is at times very inorganic, which becomes inconsistent and clunky. Reagardless of what they want the game to be, no good game can be those things, they have to find a way for the contrasting parts to compliment instead