Guild tabs not merging to POE2 - Ziz interview with Jonathan

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exsea#1724 wrote:

fiduciary responsibility.

one can argue that ggg is a company and they're keeping their investors happy.

but one thing unique is ggg's business IS NOT a traditional business.

the customers are also investors too.

Let me stop you right there, we are not investors, we're supporters.

GGG is a traditional business, they offered you a set of cosmetics and accessories, you decided the value proposition was worth it to you. You purchased it and received a receipt.

That is about as traditional as it comes.

Now how you interpreted that information is out of GGG's control.


Circumstances change over time, many things can change overtime not all of it is still feasible for various reasons. Non of which I personal believe to be malicious. I mean just look around at the gaming landscape, there's so many games out there today, trying to squeeze as much out of you as possible. This hasn't been GGG's track record.

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TwistedTrip#5344 wrote:

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exsea#1724 wrote:

fiduciary responsibility.

one can argue that ggg is a company and they're keeping their investors happy.

but one thing unique is ggg's business IS NOT a traditional business.

the customers are also investors too.

Let me stop you right there, we are not investors, we're supporters.

GGG is a traditional business, they offered you a set of cosmetics and accessories, you decided the value proposition was worth it to you. You purchased it and received a receipt.

That is about as traditional as it comes.

Now how you interpreted that information is out of GGG's control.


Circumstances change over time, many things can change overtime not all of it is still feasible for various reasons. Non of which I personal believe to be malicious intent. I mean just look around at the gaming landscape, there's so many games out there today, trying to squeeze as much out of you as possible. This hasn't been GGG's track record.

let me stop you right there. GGG's business model is not a traditional business model.

all those cosmetics etc that you mention has zero value if POE as a game did not exist. the reality is GGG is selling a SERVICE. like cable TV. but unlike cable TV, they sell cosmetics and DEPEND on the customers to buy their cosmetics to keep their lights running.

if you think GGG is a traditional business, you kinda failed really badly at that definition. name me ONE business that existed before 1980s thats not government funded providing a FREE SERVICE to it's users and depends on the users buying essentially something equivalent to trading cards to keep the lights on.

i can save your time and answer it for you. no such businesses exists.

cosmetics and stash tabs only have value because of POE's servers continue to be kept online and updated.

who in their right mind would buy cosmetics and stash tabs if the game did not exist. this is a crucical point that you cant dismiss. GGG is selling us a service.

Aye look if you want to delude yourself, that's fine.

I'm not going to have a back and forth about the 1980's, we don't live in the 1980's. We live in an ever evolving and changing world, if you can't understand that, there's not much more I can tell you.

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TwistedTrip#5344 wrote:

Aye look if you want to delude yourself, that's fine.

I'm not going to have a back and forth about the 1980's, we don't live in the 1980's. We live in an ever evolving and changing world, if you can't understand that, there's not much more I can tell you.

you failed to identify ggg's business model in a spectacular manner.

you were the one who said ggg is running a traditional business model.

if it truly was traditional, you could easily pinpoint a similar business.

but you cant can you? even if you push forward by 10-20 years you still cant.

its really ironic that you can point out "evolve" and "ever changing" while you declare ggg's business model as being traditional.

lol so what? traditional means anything goes? for sure traditions do evolve but if you're gonna say a new business model is traditional then yeah i m not gonna understand you because that simply doesnt make sense.

new is new. traditional is traditional.

I'd advise everyone to remember that this is not a finished game, and we don't know if the old guild stuff will eventually be moved over or not.

We literally do not know, and anyone who says anything else is lying.

So I'd hold off on buying any new guild tabs or slots until the full release of the game, or at the very least until we get an official statement on this.

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exsea#1724 wrote:

fiduciary responsibility.

one can argue that ggg is a company and they're keeping their investors happy.

but one thing unique is ggg's business IS NOT a traditional business.

the customers are also investors too.

put it this way. a friend gives a free ride to your work place everyday since its on the way.

once in a while you treat him a meal, once in a while you give him gas money.

then one day he tells you about his plan of buying a new car and points out how his car is getting old and how it would benefit both of us if he got a new car.

so i chip in more money.

one day he buys a new car but he gives it to his mom. and we're stuck in the same old shitty car.

it is HIS RIGHT to do whatever he wants to with his money. but he's an ASSHOLE for leading us to believe that our contributions would be mutually beneficial.

that is where GGG is at on this. this is the same situation GGG was when they decided that poe1 was to be split from poe2.

if you defend GGG, yes you are right, ggg has all the right to do whatever they want with all the money we threw at them willingly. but it still does not discount them for not keeping their end of the bargain.

in fact theres several words for this. ranging from dishonest, breach of trust to downright fraud or scam.

if ggg can provide a good reason to why guild stashes/tabs are not transferring over, then i ll accept it. but it has to be a god damn good reason.

else its literally ggg not upholding their words when they say purchases mades in poe1 will carry over if its logical.

a better way of handling this is by saying it wont transfer over FOR NOW due to technical difficulties. but outright saying it wont transfer over period is quite different.

i m pretty sure most of us will just close an eye if they needed more time to deploy it rather than just casually dismissing it.

one reason why i splurged on ggg a lot was because i trusted them with their promise where our purchases would carry over where it made sense.

Wow, where to even begin with this rollercoaster of analogies and accusations? Let’s dissect the chaos step by step:

"Fiduciary responsibility... customers are also investors too."
Ah, the classic “I bought something, so I’m an investor” argument. Newsflash: throwing money at cosmetics and stash tabs doesn’t grant you shares in the company or voting rights on their design choices. You’re a customer, not a stakeholder.

"The car analogy."
First off, what kind of convoluted scenario is this? If your buddy promised to give you a ride, and suddenly you assumed he’d let you control his car purchase decisions, that’s a you problem, not his.
Also, you’re not stuck in the old car—you’re choosing to stay there. If you think GGG’s “car” is broken, why not just hop on a different ride? There are plenty of other games out there.

"Ranging from dishonest, breach of trust, to downright fraud or scam."
Fraud? Scam? Those are some big accusations for something that’s literally laid out in their terms of service: no guarantees about the functionality of future games. Hyperbole much?
Also, calling it a “breach of trust” because GGG isn’t fulfilling your personal interpretation of what they said is a stretch. Did they promise every single guild feature would make the cut, or is this just your selective memory talking?

"If GGG can provide a good reason..."
They already have: it’s a technical limitation. Are you expecting them to detail the backend of their data migration system, complete with diagrams and code snippets? Or is it just easier for you to assume they’re lazy or lying?
And what exactly qualifies as a “god damn good reason” in your book? Would the words “game architecture incompatibility” suffice, or do they need to carve it into a gold tablet and deliver it to you personally?

"It’s literally GGG not upholding their words."
Literally? Really? They said purchases would carry over where logical. The fact that guilds operate differently in PoE2 clearly makes it not logical. You’re asking them to bend reality to cater to your expectations.

"A better way of handling this..."
Oh, so now you’re the PR expert? GGG explained the situation honestly. Would you prefer they sugarcoat it and give you false hope just to circle back later with the same outcome?

"One reason why I splurged..."
So you spent money because you trusted them. Fair enough. But this isn’t a betrayal—it’s a decision grounded in technical and business realities. If your “trust” hinges on everything being exactly how you envisioned it, maybe you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.

GGG is building an entirely new game from the ground up and giving you free access to it. Instead of focusing on what isn’t transferring, maybe take a moment to appreciate everything that is. If you can’t, maybe it’s time to reflect on whether the issue is really GGG’s or your own inflated expectations.

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Helldrazi#4560 wrote:

Wow, where to even begin with this rollercoaster of analogies and accusations? Let’s dissect the chaos step by step:

"Fiduciary responsibility... customers are also investors too."
Ah, the classic “I bought something, so I’m an investor” argument. Newsflash: throwing money at cosmetics and stash tabs doesn’t grant you shares in the company or voting rights on their design choices. You’re a customer, not a stakeholder.

the thing is, GGG is not running a traditional business. we dont buy cosmetics or stash tabs if the game as a service did not exist.

i would even go as far as to say a lot of us support ggg more than we want to show off cool skins.

"The car analogy."
First off, what kind of convoluted scenario is this? If your buddy promised to give you a ride, and suddenly you assumed he’d let you control his car purchase decisions, that’s a you problem, not his.
Also, you’re not stuck in the old car—you’re choosing to stay there. If you think GGG’s “car” is broken, why not just hop on a different ride? There are plenty of other games out there.
goes back to me stating this is not a traditional business. the relationship that many of us had likened ggg as our friends. if they did not foster so much good will and trust i would be playing the game with the very bare minimum of stash tabs. i have many friends. many who obnoxiously pirates games just because they can. they can afford to buy the game but pirate the game anyway. but those friends actually support GGG. why? because we like GGG.

did they promise every single guild feature would make the cut? they promised that things would transfer over if it made sense to transfer over. is that too hard to comprehend or are you intentionally ignoring the meaning derived from that statement?



"Ranging from dishonest, breach of trust, to downright fraud or scam."
Fraud? Scam? Those are some big accusations for something that’s literally laid out in their terms of service: no guarantees about the functionality of future games. Hyperbole much?
Also, calling it a “breach of trust” because GGG isn’t fulfilling your personal interpretation of what they said is a stretch. Did they promise every single guild feature would make the cut, or is this just your selective memory talking?

as mentioned, "everything carries over where logical". it is important to understand the intent of GGG making this promise. GGG wants to assure players that anything they buy would most likely carry over to poe2.

"If GGG can provide a good reason..."
They already have: it’s a technical limitation. Are you expecting them to detail the backend of their data migration system, complete with diagrams and code snippets? Or is it just easier for you to assume they’re lazy or lying?
And what exactly qualifies as a “god damn good reason” in your book? Would the words “game architecture incompatibility” suffice, or do they need to carve it into a gold tablet and deliver it to you personally?

you know what? you got me there. i will agree technical limitation IS a very valid reason. but on the flipside, it goes back to GGG selling us the idea that our investments are protected. thats the entire reason why they promised us that mtxs would transfer where logical to begin with.

its also a brilliant marketing move. logically if people knew the game's sequel was on the way, people would simply stop or reduce buying stuff for the older game.

"It’s literally GGG not upholding their words."
Literally? Really? They said purchases would carry over where logical. The fact that guilds operate differently in PoE2 clearly makes it not logical. You’re asking them to bend reality to cater to your expectations.

i hate it but i will agree with you on this. somewhat.

"A better way of handling this..."
Oh, so now you’re the PR expert? GGG explained the situation honestly. Would you prefer they sugarcoat it and give you false hope just to circle back later with the same outcome?

i agree with you to an extent. you have a solid point, just by saying that its simply wont work with ZERO mention of any plans to do anything about it in the future is simply disappointing. its feels more like "oh too bad, deal with it".

and it goes against what i mentioned earlier about good will etc. ggg made sure that currency tabs etc works in poe2.

if ggg said currency tabs cant work in poe2 would players be upset? most likely.

"One reason why I splurged..."
So you spent money because you trusted them. Fair enough. But this isn’t a betrayal—it’s a decision grounded in technical and business realities. If your “trust” hinges on everything being exactly how you envisioned it, maybe you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.

GGG is building an entirely new game from the ground up and giving you free access to it. Instead of focusing on what isn’t transferring, maybe take a moment to appreciate everything that is. If you can’t, maybe it’s time to reflect on whether the issue is really GGG’s or your own inflated expectations.

i also agree to you somewhat. i DO in fact have a lot of expectations for GGG because GGG is an awesome company. and i do agree that my expectations are pretty damn high too.

this is also why i say that GGG is not a traditional business. i really wouldnt have spent as much money as i did if i didnt trust ggg so much.

in fact i justified throwing money at GGG once in a while by the fact that i was under the assumption that GGG is gonna keep my best interests at heart.

but i do agree with you. for a free game GGG is hitting a huge checklist of wins.

bitching about the guild stash is ALL we can do at this point because thats the only way we can signal to GGG "hey look, theres the few of us here who really care for this because we really love using the guild stash". if we keep quiet GGG could easily just ignore it and make zero attempt to improve the situation.

hence feedback forums exist.

Have you even watched the interview? Jonathan said he would have loved to transfer these over but they did not manage to have the resources to implement it.
This is just directed to the discussion about business policies and who is a customer etc., which is useless at this point. He literally said it is not a policy decision.

Nevertheless, you can of course ask for a later implementation and hopefully we will get an answer if that is possible or not.

I'm reading back-and-forth about business models and relatedly, evolving landscapes...

The basics are fairly simple. Within reason, there isn't any ethical business model, "traditional" or not, then or now (outside of interactions wherein subterfuge is a mutually-acknowledged aspect...gambling, for instance) that involves misrepresentation, intentional or otherwise, of one's future actions. If Party 1 states that they will be doing something in the future, it is only reasonable that the other party(ies) make subsequent decisions, in their dealings with Party 1, with the expectation that Party 1 will follow through as stated. Only then can the other party(ies) have the information needed to predict the value obtained in exchange for investment (of time, money, or any other "currency). This is a timeless aspect of dealings between entities, and a hopeful expectation that individuals have when dealing with other individuals.

There are 2 concrete time periods relevant to this discussion:

1) The time period after which time GGG announced that PoE 1 would be evolving into PoE 2, and that the 2 games would effectively be the same game. This time period extends to the time at which a significant change to that plan was formally announced, stating that the 2 games would be evolving separately.

2) The time period after which time GGG announced (paraphrasing) that guilds and guild assets would be migrated from PoE 1 to PoE 2. This time period extends to the time at which it was (sort of, indirectly) announced that technical difficulties were preventing that migration.

During those 2 time periods, it could only reasonably have been expected that related investments into one's PoE 1 experience would extend into PoE 2 with equal value. Thus, it is the ethical responsibility of Party 1, GGG in this case, to honor that reasonable expectation which was based on their own unequivocal statements with respect to future actions (during those 2 time periods).

Personally, I don't think it likely that GGG plans to leave guilds high and dry here. They've probably been working hard on a way to follow through on their intention to migration PoE 1 guilds with PoE 2, discovered that it wasn't going to be feasible, and have other technical considerations on top of deliberating on how to handle the situation. This isn't exactly an urgent matter.

The remedy seems clear, assuming they don't find a way to migrate guilds, and that is to give guild leaders "guild points" equivalent to their PoE 1 value which is spendable only in PoE 2. I'll go out on a limb and suppose that doing this wouldn't be technically complicated. Barring a great technical challenge, I don't see any halfway-decent reason to refuse to do so.

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MoonPeace#1394 wrote:

I'm reading back-and-forth about business models and relatedly, evolving landscapes...

The basics are fairly simple. Within reason, there isn't any ethical business model, "traditional" or not, then or now (outside of interactions wherein subterfuge is a mutually-acknowledged aspect...gambling, for instance) that involves misrepresentation, intentional or otherwise, of one's future actions. If Party 1 states that they will be doing something in the future, it is only reasonable that the other party(ies) make subsequent decisions, in their dealings with Party 1, with the expectation that Party 1 will follow through as stated. Only then can the other party(ies) have the information needed to predict the value obtained in exchange for investment (of time, money, or any other "currency). This is a timeless aspect of dealings between entities, and a hopeful expectation that individuals have when dealing with other individuals.

There are 2 concrete time periods relevant to this discussion:

1) The time period after which time GGG announced that PoE 1 would be evolving into PoE 2, and that the 2 games would effectively be the same game. This time period extends to the time at which a significant change to that plan was formally announced, stating that the 2 games would be evolving separately.

2) The time period after which time GGG announced (paraphrasing) that guilds and guild assets would be migrated from PoE 1 to PoE 2. This time period extends to the time at which it was (sort of, indirectly) announced that technical difficulties were preventing that migration.

During those 2 time periods, it could only reasonably have been expected that related investments into one's PoE 1 experience would extend into PoE 2 with equal value. Thus, it is the ethical responsibility of Party 1, GGG in this case, to honor that reasonable expectation which was based on their own unequivocal statements with respect to future actions (during those 2 time periods).

Personally, I don't think it likely that GGG plans to leave guilds high and dry here. They've probably been working hard on a way to follow through on their intention to migration PoE 1 guilds with PoE 2, discovered that it wasn't going to be feasible, and have other technical considerations on top of deliberating on how to handle the situation.

The remedy seems clear, assuming they don't find a way to migrate guilds, and that is to give guild leaders "guild points" equivalent to their PoE 1 value which is spendable only in PoE 2. I'll go out on a limb and suppose that doing this wouldn't be technically complicated. Barring a great technical challenge, I don't see any halfway-decent reason to refuse to do so.

Let’s dig into this take, which starts off sounding reasonable but crumbles under its own weight when you poke at the implications.

"Within reason, there isn’t any ethical business model…that involves misrepresentation..."
Sure, misrepresentation isn’t great, but GGG didn’t actually lie. They said guild purchases would transfer over if it made sense. The separation of PoE1 and PoE2 into distinct games clearly makes guild mechanics incompatible. That’s not fraud; that’s evolution.

"Time periods relevant to this discussion…"
The outlined timelines are fair, but they fail to consider the nuance of technical feasibility and the iterative nature of game development. Plans change. The gaming industry isn’t bound by rigid contracts ensuring that every roadmap item comes to fruition.

"It could only reasonably have been expected…"
Why? Just because something was stated at one point doesn’t mean it’s set in stone. Game development is dynamic, and technical constraints often arise. Expecting infallibility from a company delivering a free sequel is unrealistic.

"The remedy seems clear…to give guild leaders ‘guild points’ equivalent to their PoE1 value…"
On the surface, this sounds simple, but here’s where it falls apart:
Who gets the points? If multiple players contributed, how do you divide them? What if the guild leader didn’t buy everything, or they’ve stopped playing?
What if the guild dissolved? Are former members entitled to reimbursement? What if players have joined multiple guilds?
Matching guilds: What if someone in PoE2 creates a guild with the same name as one from PoE1? Who gets priority for the name or associated points?
This solution assumes a clean, simple system for distributing points, but the reality is messy. Implementing it could be just as complex—if not more so—than transferring guild assets directly.

"Barring a great technical challenge…"
“I’ll go out on a limb…” Yeah, that limb just snapped. Unless you’re deeply familiar with GGG’s backend systems, you’re in no position to claim what is or isn’t technically feasible. Assuming the solution is easy just because it sounds easy is naive.

GGG is navigating a difficult balance between player expectations and technical limitations. They’ve already gone above and beyond by ensuring personal MTX transfers, which is arguably far more important to the majority of players. Guilds are a niche feature compared to individual accounts.
If people really want guild functionality in PoE2, let GGG take their time to evaluate options instead of demanding half-baked solutions. It’s better to have nothing transfer now and explore alternatives later than to implement a rushed, inequitable system.