Ben_ on why POE1 melee doesn't need POE2 animation to "save melee"

I have to point out an important detail here about Lihhtming Strike. The reason it was good was mostly not just its projectile count but the major weight came from its damage numbers with Nightblade/Whitering step interaction roughly 500% crit multi which got nerfed.

And here we are at the damage numbers again.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

I am not dodging the question, you are just missing the point.

Lightning strike WAS considered good because of it's range and clear. I use past tense here because all they did was to remove half the projectiles and now nobody uses it anymore.

So if hitting shit from off screen with multiple projectiles is what's needed for "melee" to be considered "good" in this game how do you plan on fixing it without coming back to your own question of "is this even melee"?

So if they gave Cleave a half or full screen AOE, not like you can't have that already but anyway, wouldn't you just ask the same question then?

hard to explain anything to you cause you cant feel what melee is. you dont seem to feel the difference between lightning strike and heavy strike. So in that case why do you come on those types of discussion since for you the feel of the skill is unimportant ? go have fun play the most meta skill you can find and good for you. i have 0 pb with that. you see, when shits get defined, we re going somewhere. like the guy that tolds me on an another thread that s almost the only metrics is currency per hour. and y in that case nothing can fix melee too, beside ruining the fun of all range players wich i am not asking for.

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zzang wrote:

I have to point out an important detail here about Lihhtming Strike. The reason it was good was mostly not just its projectile count but the major weight came from its damage numbers with Nightblade/Whitering step interaction roughly 500% crit multi which got nerfed.

And here we are at the damage numbers again.

and also if i remember correctly a way to double hit or sth

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SerialF wrote:

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zzang wrote:

I have to point out an important detail here about Lihhtming Strike. The reason it was good was mostly not just its projectile count but the major weight came from its damage numbers with Nightblade/Whitering step interaction roughly 500% crit multi which got nerfed.

And here we are at the damage numbers again.

and also if i remember correctly a way to double hit or sth

Oh that is not taken yet and the only reason why Iam personally still play Lightning strike. But you are partly right at the same time because Lightning Strike could actually tripple hit this way :P

You hit with the melee part at proximity range but with enough distance the projectile part hits too (Edit: requires an additional Ancestor) and with Vengeant Cascade the returning projectile hits again. So in essence we have a 500% damage effectivity skill in the right setup.

Oh damn the damage numbers at its core again hmmm.

I wonder if GGG could just buff melee gems by 200% damage effectivity
just to see for the duration of a patch what will go on. Im pretty sure we will still see the Kinetic Blast and Tornado Shot zoomers but melee could have its niche i guess.

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SerialF wrote:

hard to explain anything to you cause you cant feel what melee is. you dont seem to feel the difference between lightning strike and heavy strike. So in that case why do you come on those types of discussion since for you the feel of the skill is unimportant ? go have fun play the most meta skill you can find and good for you. i have 0 pb with that. you see, when shits get defined, we re going somewhere. like the guy that tolds me on an another thread that s almost the only metrics is currency per hour. and y in that case nothing can fix melee too, beside ruining the fun of all range players wich i am not asking for.

I do feel the difference, i actually agree that lightning strike isn't really melee. I am just pointing out that you'd have to give heavy strike and other melee skills a reach similar to that to make them really good.

If you have a brilliant idea to make real melee like heavy strike feel good without adding tons of strike range/AOE to the point of making it a ranged skill i am all ears.

@zzang Simple question for you then. If GGG trippled the base damage of lightning strike but removed the projectile component from both the base and the vaal skill. Would you play it?

we told you, balance damage, the additional hits are already anough of a screen coverage to feel good.

the only remaining stuff will be non strike melee, things like cleave or lacerate. but lacerate is harder cause bleed is in a badd spot so they would have to first fix bleed then judge if it s enough for bleed focused skills.

cleave cant entirely fix by damage/aoe or else cleave = sweep. so in that one particular case, it would be different scaling mechanics.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

@zzang Simple question for you then. If GGG trippled the base damage of lightning strike but removed the projectile component from both the base and the vaal skill. Would you play it?

I feel like this question is a trap. There needs to be a minimal amount of AoE coverage. I could try to offset it with multiple sources of Ancestors and melee Splash and see how it goes though.

Edit: I think for the math to work out LS would need six times the damage since losing the projectile part also means losing the shotgun ability.

It also depends a bit on the range of the ancestors since a crucial mastery was removed for 30% increased Ancestor strike range. A funny side fact the 30% used to be baked into awakened Ancestral Support gem before it was mastery that got nerfed out of the game afterwards.

I think if the math checks out it could work but its purely a number balance thing.since there is not much else that can be done in PoE 1. All the related fixes are PoE2 exclusive.

Yes, it is a number balance thing. Everything in POE boils down to numbers. The question is which number. Imo, for most melee skills, the important number isn't damage. It's stuff related to coverage at the end of the day. You can get plenty of damage even now with proper gear but there are very limited ways to help with coverage. Infinity +1 damage is useless with zero coverage. Stuff like Wild Strike or Frost Blades can be improved by buffing damage but they are exceptions.

The other important question that should be asked is probably, what is your definition of "good". If it's personal feel then there isn't much discussion to be had about it because it's different for each person. One might feel satisfied with HS getting twice it's damage others wouldn't play it even with 10 times the damage.
The definition i use here is POE ninja representation because it's the closest thing we have to an objective measure. And i don't see those numbers changing much if at all even if all of bens suggestions would be implemented. It could mean the world to some people but it wouldn't change the overall stats much.

I am not against trying to buff it also but i just don't see the overall situation changing much even with buffs.

Well if poe ninja meta based on streamer / popularity of build guides and clear speed is your definition then there is no common ground for discussion. I dont think in the systems of PoE 1 that melee can be meta across all league modes.

For me a feel good melee skill has decent damage and coverage you cannot exclude one for the other as with all things in the world its not black or white.

With damage buffs more coverage can be gained as i have examplified in my last post. With a lot coverage on a skill there can be more focused investment on single target as long as the sum of those things make single target and clear good enough to offset melees inherent disadvantages of being close in a high speed game with masses of monsters.

If you name Heavy Strike then the damage numbers are simply not enough to offset its coverage problem.

Cleaves AoE is not enough to cover for its lack of damage effectivity.
Inherent attack speed penalties dont help melee gems either.

But based on your definition whats good which is poe ninja i dont think its worth continue to discuss with you since i also explained in the past posts how i personally more looking to have a decent niche for melee not make it meta clear speed standard. We will see a melee meta in PoE 2 if the balance team does a good job and slows the game down some nodges. The support gems in PoE 2 wont have damage multipliets for the most part.

That said i think we simply agree to disagree.