[Ruthless] Ruthless is the most important experiment that ever happened in ARPG history

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alhazred70 wrote:

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ladish wrote:

I find the Ruthless fetishism a bit weird because the mode is touted as "true old school challenge" while stubbornly retaining trade. If you're equating challenge and item scarcity then trade is the biggest short circuit to game challenge you can get.

You can play ruthless with SSF flag if you want that ultimate sweaty experience.

Ruthless with trade definitely adds a unique experience while not being quite as thirsty and masochistic. Its actually quite nice because trade is restricted very much by the smaller pop and the availability of things that trvialize the game faster is much MUCH lower.

Also POE's very very balanced around trade which often makes SSF feel like someone's jacked up mod that just put decimals and zeros in front of every whole number. Basically SSF is trade with a minus 1000 multiplier due to not being able to buy other peoples lucky finds for 1c but RUTHLESS SSF has additional x.0001 negative multipliers that turns this into a fucking exponential negative curve (so to speak).

My 2nd from last character has something like 8-9 /days played and gear in my stash looks like day one/two normal POE gear LOL. I have a couple okayish items tbh by Ruthless standards I have a few banger items but still its a fuckin' mess. The mode is so thirsty for time and repetition its kinda hilarious. But here's me being a glutton for punishment.

Basically Ruthless trade softens that curve... It might be the best mode in the game if you want "D2 with occasional forum/chat trades" vibes".

Yes I'm aware it can be flagged with ssf - but then the breakdown of challenges is the same as non ruthless - i.e. ssf indistinguishable from trade.

I am resigned to 99% of players wanting trade I just get a bit bugged that Chris Wilson discards no trade as a legitimate difficulty+ gaming mode whereas Ruthless gets distinct challenges almost off the bat. I still suspect the no trade=terrible arpg rationale is just nostalgia from D2 since I don't think I ever had a scenario where buying my items was more satisfying then self finding/crafting them.

Also not a huge fan of unfettered access to all skill gems in ruthless. Seems self defeating if the idea is to be brutal and "work with what you find". But either way trade would trivialize that and make it a non issue.

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Phrazz wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Looting and delving are obsolete now too and Essences + fractures are the new harvest so what exactly is different now? Powerlevel is also higher with crucible than it was with harvest so game is easier. Plus aren't your statements all shit since you claim that "most" people (aka the majority) do x?

I don't feel like looting is obsolete, neither is delving (fossils/resonators). And fracture+essence is not the "new harvest", it's a pretty easy way to "good enough items", which should be pretty accessible. Harvest was a direct line to 99% perfect items, which I feel was a little bit over the top. I think all of your comparisons here are hyperboling, to be fair.

And what did I say 'most' people did/are doing? And for the future: If I use " or ' around the word "most", it is an indicator that it's not accurate, but rather an assumption. I usually use "a lot", as that's what I know, anything else (most, majority) is always BS coming from most people, including me.

But fuck it; if they introduced Harvest crafting but spread it a little bit, so the game wasn't centered around ONE mechanic, I would probably be OK with it. But this 100%(!!!!) reliance on ONE mechanic was killing the game as a whole in my eyes, and it felt less diverse then all other leagues/iterations of the game.

I don't feel like i am hyperboling at all, if anything that 99% perfect item via harvest is a large hyperbole since getting anywhere close to that basically required TFT, harvest alone wouldn't get you anywhere near that. Then again given the difference in our goals and therefor the difference in our idea of "good enough" items it's probably pointless to even talk much about it.

So i just say this much, I haven't found a single useful fracturing base since they started dropping, not a single one and i always pick them up and ID them hopeing for something. If it's tier 1 block recovery then yeah sure, but anything useful? Forget it. Fossils and essences are the same. How many hundreds or even thousands of deafening essences would it take to get 3 phys mods >tier 5 on an item? (EDIT: craftofexile says 20300 deafening essences for tier 1 flat and 2x tier 4 increased... these numbers are outright insanity if you ask me) Even when fully specced into it it will likely take you an entire league just to get a remotely useful endgame weapon via looting.
Which kinda sucks if you don't want to league start a caster and then transition to an attack build 3 months into the league after you finally got a useable weapon. Meanwhile getting said weapon via trade takes a day or two. How is looting even remotely relevant as a mechanic in that kind of situation?

Loot stops being relevant after white maps. As i said in another topic ~60 res and 50+ life is about the limit you can expect from rare items you found on the ground and all the good uniques are gated behind pinnacle/uber bosses you won't ever beat on an attack build unless you farm for months to get the gear first or just use trade. Honestly, the biggest reason people think spells are so great is because the games loot and crafting is so god damned horrible that weapon based builds are simply not an option without trade.

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innervation wrote:

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Should it be obvious? Is it? At which point it started being "The Best ARPG" around? Certainly wasn't Talisman.

I know fully well i won't ever get 3.13 back, but saying they're "not obligated to be perfectly consistent" when they've consistently ramped and threaded the "speed league" since Synthesis, is naive at best and oblivious at worst.

I'm more than perfectly fine to never support them again if "They've changed their minds a lot about what they want the game to be" means "we want Ruthless to be like before". Massively hypocritical to attract players with what players want for years, to now market what they want and 1% of their community wants, but hey it's their game, isn't it? And I'm certain a certain Chinese company will never steer PoE into the direction they want... Ever!

And to be fair, i am putting my money where my mouth is. Grim Dawn and Last Epoch have given me everything i want from ARPGs, without the massive ego or delusions of grandeur of the "VisionTM" of what an ARPG should be.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Loot stops being relevant after white maps. As i said in another topic ~60 res and 50+ life is about the limit you can expect from rare items you found on the ground and all the good uniques are gated behind pinnacle/uber bosses you won't ever beat on an attack build unless you farm for months to get the gear first or just use trade. Honestly, the biggest reason people think spells are so great is because the games loot and crafting is so god damned horrible that weapon based builds are simply not an option without trade.

First off: Loot does not become irrelevant. Droppet items, maybe, even if I cannot phantom how you can go a league without dropping a bunch of T1 fractured bases. As I said, I have countless, and I just played 3-4 weeks. Sure, not all of them are ilvl 86, but who cares (in most cases)?

And that's where other mechanics come into play; you combine them with other mechanics: Essences + fractured items + meta crafting can, with knowledge, yield you great items, and "good enough" for ALL content.

I've talked about Harvest several times, and how it was the end all be all, and how it made the game as narrow as an eel. Why even pick up currency?

And yes, for the milionth time: The game is balanced with trading in mind. And will probably always be. Harvest was an exception, fun for a league, damaging as core.

But hey, we just have to agree to disagree here.

The question is tier 1 of what? Having a t1 fracture doesn't make the item worth it as a gambling base. There are plenty of mods that are entirely useless and even if you get a t1 life or t1 res mod somewhere and gamble with it you'll just end up with something slightly better than 50 life/60 res. Actually important stats that would be really great as base material like +1 all, +1 element, increased phys and the like are rare as hell.

And honest question, have you actually tried making lets say a 700 pdps phys weapon by yourself lately? Just 700 pdps, not crazy perfect 1500+ pdps nonsense, just something barely good enough for an endgame build? Ever tried? Because your comments honestly make me think you didn't. The amount of essences/fossils/harvestcrafts/meta crafts you have to throw at it is absurd. Especially when compared to getting a +3 bow or a +1 wand which would be the equivalent for other builds. I just tried yesterday evening for fun with a fractured base i had rotting in my stash, dozens of fossils, essences and harvest crafts later the best i had managed was 400 pdps. This is NOT "good enough" for all content, not even close.

You didn't like harvest because it was too powerful and warped the game around itself, fair enough. But fact of the matter is trade is even more powerful and warps the game even more than harvest ever did. The only difference between those 2 is that GGG sanctioned one due to personal bias.

Ruthless is not Ruthless with trade. Ruthless is PoE with less of what makes PoE a good experience. Ruthless with a movement skills added instantly devalued the ruthless aspect. Ruthless is a failed attempt to recapture the early feel of PoE for veterans of the game. Ruthless is a vanity project that would've been better left as an idea. Ruthless is a low effort and half baked. I enjoyed Ruthless in SSF where Ruthless is not compromised. I suck at PoE and hate trading.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

The question is tier 1 of what? Having a t1 fracture doesn't make the item worth it as a gambling base. There are plenty of mods that are entirely useless and even if you get a t1 life or t1 res mod somewhere and gamble with it you'll just end up with something slightly better than 50 life/60 res. Actually important stats that would be really great as base material like +1 all, +1 element, increased phys and the like are rare as hell.

And honest question, have you actually tried making lets say a 700 pdps phys weapon by yourself lately? Just 700 pdps, not crazy perfect 1500+ pdps nonsense, just something barely good enough for an endgame build? Ever tried? Because your comments honestly make me think you didn't. The amount of essences/fossils/harvestcrafts/meta crafts you have to throw at it is absurd. Especially when compared to getting a +3 bow or a +1 wand which would be the equivalent for other builds. I just tried yesterday evening for fun with a fractured base i had rotting in my stash, dozens of fossils, essences and harvest crafts later the best i had managed was 400 pdps. This is NOT "good enough" for all content, not even close.

You didn't like harvest because it was too powerful and warped the game around itself, fair enough. But fact of the matter is trade is even more powerful and warps the game even more than harvest ever did. The only difference between those 2 is that GGG sanctioned one due to personal bias.

it aint that bad. probably something like 10div with base and you end up with something decent. no fossil, just essence spam on frac t1/t2 phys. but then again you couldve picked up starforge for like 100c mid league...

harvest was only useful to force those elder/hunter bleed/poison mods to weapons.

Last time i checked you don't even get tier 1 fracture base for 10 div, more like twice that at least. And that's just the base, the craft mats come extra. Plus you won't get any of it via loot, it's all trade again. You can't do jackshit in this game without trade.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Last time i checked you don't even get tier 1 fracture base for 10 div, more like twice that at least. And that's just the base, the craft mats come extra. Plus you won't get any of it via loot, it's all trade again. You can't do jackshit in this game without trade.

True.

And this is where the game turns from a game into a pure meta-game of "who has more patience and more time to waste not actually playing but whispering a googolplex of people".

Thats why this game needs an AH for trade leagues.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Last time i checked you don't even get tier 1 fracture base for 10 div, more like twice that at least. And that's just the base, the craft mats come extra. Plus you won't get any of it via loot, it's all trade again. You can't do jackshit in this game without trade.

More over, it's never the SSF players making impossible builds and amassing multiples mirrors each league. It's GGG giving the tiniest of chances to get an overpowered resource and the poe.trade players abusing the living fuck out of it. I don't know one SSF player that was able to make a full mirror tier build, let alone a single perfect item when Harvest was around.

Maybe it's high time they balance around SSF instead of trying to do the impossible.