[Ruthless] Ruthless is the most important experiment that ever happened in ARPG history

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AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Last time i checked you don't even get tier 1 fracture base for 10 div, more like twice that at least. And that's just the base, the craft mats come extra. Plus you won't get any of it via loot, it's all trade again. You can't do jackshit in this game without trade.

More over, it's never the SSF players making impossible builds and amassing multiples mirrors each league. It's GGG giving the tiniest of chances to get an overpowered resource and the poe.trade players abusing the living fuck out of it. I don't know one SSF player that was able to make a full mirror tier build, let alone a single perfect item when Harvest was around.

Maybe it's high time they balance around SSF instead of trying to do the impossible.

This is the dilemma GGG and CW find themselves in with the current state of game. CW has said trade is "sacrosanct", but the effort and consideration with modern PoE doesn't reflect it. The trade manifesto, which hasn't changed, never accounted for PoB, 3rd party tools, the trade website, TFT, and stacking crafting leagues as core components of the game. It's wildly changed over the years, and GGG hasn't adapted (for whatever philosophical reason)

People often forget or were not even here to realize, that SSF wasn't an intended game mode. The community had to fight for a long time before GGG added it begrudgingly. (And without its own balance)

Now as it turns out, GGG was wrong about SSF, and it has become not only popular, but indeed the place where the most dedicated PoE players play.

The TLDR summary is that trade needs to be addressed, given all the changes that have occurred over the years. GGG should be more humble and flexible here with respect to their trade mainfesto and philosophy acknowledging todays PoE isnt the PoE from 2013. GGG should also reconsider the solo balance of the game. It doesn't have to be a "toothless" game mode, but it doesn't have to be solo hostile to this degree.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Last time i checked you don't even get tier 1 fracture base for 10 div, more like twice that at least. And that's just the base, the craft mats come extra. Plus you won't get any of it via loot, it's all trade again. You can't do jackshit in this game without trade.

More over, it's never the SSF players making impossible builds and amassing multiples mirrors each league. It's GGG giving the tiniest of chances to get an overpowered resource and the poe.trade players abusing the living fuck out of it. I don't know one SSF player that was able to make a full mirror tier build, let alone a single perfect item when Harvest was around.

Maybe it's high time they balance around SSF instead of trying to do the impossible.

This is the dilemma GGG and CW find themselves in with the current state of game. CW has said trade is "sacrosanct", but the effort and consideration with modern PoE doesn't reflect it. The trade manifesto, which hasn't changed, never accounted for PoB, 3rd party tools, the trade website, TFT, and stacking crafting leagues as core components of the game. It's wildly changed over the years, and GGG hasn't adapted (for whatever philosophical reason)

People often forget or were not even here to realize, that SSF wasn't an intended game mode. The community had to fight for a long time before GGG added it begrudgingly. (And without its own balance)

Now as it turns out, GGG was wrong about SSF, and it has become not only popular, but indeed the place where the most dedicated PoE players play.

The TLDR summary is that trade needs to be addressed, given all the changes that have occurred over the years. GGG should be more humble and flexible here with respect to their trade mainfesto and philosophy acknowledging todays PoE isnt the PoE from 2013. GGG should also reconsider the solo balance of the game. It doesn't have to be a "toothless" game mode, but it doesn't have to be solo hostile to this degree.

honestly I agree. I went from ssf to trade league because so many builds and skills need certain items or mod combinations in order to function at a basic level. The reliance on third party tools to fill in gaps of their own game is a huge weakness. What if POB decided to close, or charge 10$? What if tft got banned from discord, etc etc? God fobid anything happen to Neversink (take my energy). GGG should start including this basic stuff into their game.

Ruthless is hostile in what I consider the wrong ways for an arpg. It is like they took all the reward levers away while leaving the difficulty largely the same. Basically it feels like Ruthless players just don't get to play certain skills and builds, and while that might be challenging to some, it doesn't really make the game harder. People found what skills work well on 2-3 supports and started grinding the mode out.

I feel GGG really needs to reflect on what their balance should be. The ancient loot paradigm they started with. A paradigm that is "solo hostile" as you put. When POE first released players could equip a lot worse gear and be fine. Now you need what amounts to god tier gear from its initial release in order to survive hits from white mobs.

I think one of the reasons harvest and ritual league are so favorable remembered is that they allowed solo progression at a much more reasonable pace. Harvest at its core helped people progress items, perhaps a bit too quickly. In my opinion, they never adequately replaced what they removed from harvest.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

This is the dilemma GGG and CW find themselves in with the current state of game. CW has said trade is "sacrosanct", but the effort and consideration with modern PoE doesn't reflect it. The trade manifesto, which hasn't changed, never accounted for PoB, 3rd party tools, the trade website, TFT, and stacking crafting leagues as core components of the game. It's wildly changed over the years, and GGG hasn't adapted (for whatever philosophical reason)

Not to quibble but the trade manifesto was posted in 2017 or 18 all but TFT and the current state of crafting existed.

That said I think having a more vetted listing system (a few good suggestions in this thread maybe something similar to Tarkov's), not allowing unlimited trades and taking some notes from Sanctum and putting some untradable items into the game.

GGG could actually increase "overall friction" while smoothing out the individual experience. Not allowing people to mass dump tab listings would certainly lower the available items, and raise prices across the board. Meanwhile having the ability to list say 20 or 40 items max would actually make trading nicer for the (actual playing) traders and buyers because you're much less likely to not respond, but also you have less junk to keep track of.

And then taking a page from Last Epoch and making SSF/Trade a more organic choice that actually impacts wether you get the ultra stingy "path of shopping" currency farm gamplay loop or something meant to be an actual item hunt ARPG loop of looking at items because you have more than a 1 in 10,0000 chance for the item to be useful might be nice.

Right now the ultra try hard mode is Ruthless, so it feels weird to have SSF as another ultra try hard mode. Trade is possible to trivialize so fast that the game literally has no middle difficulty setting.

There's easiest mode, then "Uber sweaty", and "Uber sweaty+" modes and not much in between, Ruthless Trade is still mega thirsty though its certainly a leap easier/faster then SSF-R.

My hope is that POE2 hits that middle ground and they turn current "farm currency and shop" mode into a Zoomer (Onslaught?) mode that can have better trade. Or maybe GGG needs a explicit middle mode with its own drop rates and social rules that amount to "Group Self Found" or limited trading to hit some sort of balance between never looking at ground loot and never ever dropping the item you want because you have a better chance to buy a $1000 scratch off lotto ticket.

Can't wait for Exilcon's reveals. There's got to be something.

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alhazred70 wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

This is the dilemma GGG and CW find themselves in with the current state of game. CW has said trade is "sacrosanct", but the effort and consideration with modern PoE doesn't reflect it. The trade manifesto, which hasn't changed, never accounted for PoB, 3rd party tools, the trade website, TFT, and stacking crafting leagues as core components of the game. It's wildly changed over the years, and GGG hasn't adapted (for whatever philosophical reason)

Not to quibble but the trade manifesto was posted in 2017 or 18 all but TFT and the current state of crafting existed.

Hmmm. It was 2017 when the manifesto was posted, and everything I said that wasnt around, wasn't, minus PoB. And in fairness PoB at that point wasn't nearly what it is now. Its a technicality, but you are right about that.

My point still remains that the Trade Mainfesto is out of step with the current state of PoE. At least that's my take on it.

I agree with most of the rest of your post, and I too am in the camp that hopes Exilecon has tons of new information. However I'm not sure that will be the case based on Bex's PoE2 clarification Tweet. Who knows what will be said later this month...GGG has kept everything PoE2 related super close to the vest these past 4 years.

I think you are wrong about getting t1 fractured items to drop in, i find heaps when i do t16 maps. Its more a matter of difficulty of finding specific t1 fractured items. Just do excavations.

The problem is that build that are 100x stronger than yours is getting more loot faster and flooding the market with items. Maybe a cap on how many trade you can make a day would be good.

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Thesuffering wrote:

I think you are wrong about getting t1 fractured items to drop in, i find heaps when i do t16 maps. Its more a matter of difficulty of finding specific t1 fractured items. Just do excavations.

The problem is that build that are 100x stronger than yours is getting more loot faster and flooding the market with items. Maybe a cap on how many trade you can make a day would be good.

Why is that a problem?

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innervation wrote:

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Thesuffering wrote:

I think you are wrong about getting t1 fractured items to drop in, i find heaps when i do t16 maps. Its more a matter of difficulty of finding specific t1 fractured items. Just do excavations.

The problem is that build that are 100x stronger than yours is getting more loot faster and flooding the market with items. Maybe a cap on how many trade you can make a day would be good.

Why is that a problem?

pure fomo lol

Everyone could min-max their build and farming strategy so it's the players own fault to make less than other players/builds, but some fail to realize that.

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Pashid wrote:

pure fomo lol

To be fair, the entirety of PoE is a huge fomo scheme.

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Pashid wrote:

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innervation wrote:

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Thesuffering wrote:

I think you are wrong about getting t1 fractured items to drop in, i find heaps when i do t16 maps. Its more a matter of difficulty of finding specific t1 fractured items. Just do excavations.

The problem is that build that are 100x stronger than yours is getting more loot faster and flooding the market with items. Maybe a cap on how many trade you can make a day would be good.

Why is that a problem?

pure fomo lol

Everyone could min-max their build and farming strategy so it's the players own fault to make less than other players/builds, but some fail to realize that.

Well i deliberately choose weaker builds because they are more fun to play. I dont want to beat ubers in a few seconds. People who have 100x stronger builds than yours will generally have 100x the loot and dictate the economy.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Last time i checked you don't even get tier 1 fracture base for 10 div, more like twice that at least. And that's just the base, the craft mats come extra. Plus you won't get any of it via loot, it's all trade again. You can't do jackshit in this game without trade.

just bought each of the bases for 1div.