Time to nerf Magic find?

"

AintCare wrote:

Just to play the devils advocate.

what if we get more MF, at a cost of dmg?

What I'm talking here is that if you can get more benefit from stacking MF than zooming across the map. Maybe this will shift the zoom meta, which I doubt many rly like.

Problem is...people will always game the system to get the MF AND zoom across the map. Its already happening. People already DO sacrifice tons of damage for MF, and yet they find the build that still affords the most speed and power even with that sacrifice. And they exist in spades.

Additionally, the popular uniques that grant the iiq/iir already have pretty severe downsides: no life, incredibly variable rolls, slow movement speed, no damage mods, etc. Just by using that gear you already have a huge damage cost among other things.

Tornado shot is a good example, but minion builds are another. Death aura is another. As long as you are careful what bosses and what mechanics you interact with you lose practically zero clearspeed if you cut your damage by 90% on certain builds. Before I deleted all my standard characters, I had a character with legacy IIQ gem, 100+% iiq / 250+% iir that could clear t16s in less than a minute dealing 1/10 of what the build was ACTUALLY capable of. I just couldn't juice the maps to the gills...but that really didn't matter with the mf stats I had.

The current state of PoE is just so imbalanced from mechanic to mechanic that you can't simply say "more x, at the cost of y" because there is ALWAYS a way to not lose y. It just tends to require more investment.


I agree with Caribbean, this whole mf argument can be substituted for literally any stat in the game and it would be the same argument. These are all mod choices that you can make and they all have their theoretical ups and downs

I literally can't picture what you are describing....are you saying that the game would track how fast you are killing things and naturally give you more loot if it takes you more time? That is an utterly ridiculous concept.

As far as no downsides: you must be joking. Throwing on Goldwyrm is one giant downside...hardly any movement speed, no life roll, a single resistance, plus the inability to benchcraft on it. The loss is astounding if you compare using that versus even a low-tier endgame rare. Same with the gloves, any of the biscos, even the average ventor's. Greed's Embrace, a much coveted armor slot, yields no defensive benefits, negative resistances, and a movespeed penalty.

If you spec for mf, you are using these uniques and foregoing oodles of power.

Even if you WEREN'T going for a max MF build, and instead were just trying to get some on your gear you would be losing 1 mod on almost all pieces of gear, maybe restricted to gold rings losing powerful ring implicits, etc. The downsides are already worked in, just because it doesn't then layer a specific "penalty" like negative resists doesn't mean there aren't downsides lol.


It is already the case, 90% of the time, that if you spec for mf your clearspeed suffers. You deal less damage, you have less defense, maybe you even sacrifice an entire link for IIR. I'm not sure what else you are referring to when you talk about this slower mf thing.

last question, I promise!

What do you mean having 50% of your gear be magic? Are you saying you want ruthless drops to be the norm in the NORMAL game? And then oodles of mf would raise that lowered bar to the current drop rates? No thank you. If I wanted that, I would play Ruthless. We don't need ruthless-style loot, we simply need smarter loot.

As for additional penalties imposed on iiq/iir: perhaps. But why? Why should iiq/iir be treated that way to such a degree, when there are already tons of downsides and sacrifices associated with it? Can't the same be said of critical strike builds? The damage ceiling of crit builds is exponentially higher than non-crit builds, so why don't we also add penalties to crit rolls? How about charges? Additional max charges exponentially raise your power, so why shouldn't we add downsides to max charges? Why is MF so deserving of this nasty attention when, in reality, for the SOLO player mf offers a meaningful but hardly gamebreaking increase in loot. Party play mf on the other hand, is a totally different beast.

If someone else's build has 3x the clear speed of my build, they functionally already have 3x the drops that I get. 300% quantity with zero penalty. Why should I be penalized if I choose to shoot my speed in the foot, opt into mf for more meaningful but less frequent drops? And those builds that DON'T sacrifice speed? Well thats a BALANCE issue and not an MF issue at all.

"All current downsides are mitigated by medium investment": no this is not true. It is ONLY true on a small handful of "meta" mf builds. I made this point in my very first response. And yes, this is the main problem of your idea. No matter what you do, players will find the most optimal way to erase the downsides. Currently, the answer is basically TS and Minions. Most other builds simply will NOT have the dps numbers (or range) to speed through t16s with mf gear on. You legitimately cannot slap on an entire set of mf gear and lose a support and expect most builds to perform well enough to tackle even early red maps. If they have mirror level or damn near mirror level gear in every other open slot, then maybe. For example, even minion builds which are somewhat part of the mf meta NEED a pretty wicked weapon (think 50+ divines) and helm to even remotely consider mf-ing red maps. Otherwise its painfully slow and not worth the extra time and effort. Tornado shot builds generally either need a fantastic elemental bow, or need to sacrifice Greed's Embrace and run Hyrri's to get even close to the damage numbers necessary to "speed" red maps.

I feel like you are living in some sort of MF fantasy world, or otherwise don't have very much experience building an mf character...you are SEVERELY limited in what build can make mf worthwhile, and the up front cost to gear an mf character is pretty darn high. This whole "no downside" thing is pretty ignorant.

"

AintCare wrote:

IIR is complete mystery to me, AFAIK we don't have tables like we did in D2. When I played ruthless, and took the 800% IIR from Rouge Exiles, it meant very little. No idea how this computes.

with IIR its just Lots of trash uniques with an over-abundance of rares at the top end almost no items are left that aren't rare in most cases but no effect to currency, 800% is pretty easy to hit and im honestly underwhelmed most of the time for the investment, its mostly a build i made to feed trash uniques and items to new players in the storyline.

I would just make it so that IIQ doesn't affect currency drops all the same as IIR and call it a day, only map mods/difficulty modifiers/party scaling/altars etc would modify currency drops and iiq would still have divination cards/etc (which as far as im aware IIR also has no scaling for)

"

AintCare wrote:

"

SilentSymphony wrote:

"

AintCare wrote:

IIR is complete mystery to me, AFAIK we don't have tables like we did in D2. When I played ruthless, and took the 800% IIR from Rouge Exiles, it meant very little. No idea how this computes.

with IIR its just Lots of trash uniques with an over-abundance of rares at the top end almost no items are left that aren't rare in most cases but no effect to currency, 800% is pretty easy to hit and im honestly underwhelmed most of the time for the investment, its mostly a build i made to feed trash uniques and items to new players in the storyline.

I would just make it so that IIQ doesn't affect currency drops all the same as IIR and call it a day, only map mods/difficulty modifiers/party scaling/altars etc would modify currency drops and iiq would still have divination cards/etc (which as far as im aware IIR also has no scaling for)

Well I know what IIR stands for but the calc/breakpoints are beyond my scope.

So if you run lets say 200IIQ, is it worth it for you atm? I played around with Standard Legacy IIQ gear which I have few of. And I found its more of a meme than a legit strat. Extrapolating this into a league makes this even worse.

I mean if you can run the map twice as fast, you will get more of everything, where IIQ doesn't include things like league mechanics.

My proposition was to make it better than that, bringing more depth into it, with diminishing returns and straight up drawbacks to clear speed (like global reductions), that can't be mitigated.

I guess IIQ is for ppl that farm currency, something I will never understand so I will just peace out at this point.

I'd have to do some tests its been a long time since i did as low as 200, maybe i will in the coming leagues and post some statistics here, If i make enough money i'll give it a shot.

If i lean towards nerfing iiq/iir its mostly because im afraid of the consequences of public perception if it were to ever become worse than the Archnemesis league was.

I don't think people understand the long-term consequences this will bring outside of MF.

If GGG nerfs MF and makes high-investment mapping less viable, everyone will flock to league content that doesn't depend on MF or party bonuses (ex. Expedition, Heist, Delve city nodes, Essence). Eventually GGG will have to nerf those in order to encourage people play other content again. Have you all seen what they did to Abyss and Breach lately? They suck.

Do you want leagues like Expedition or Essence to require the same absurd level of investment to get any good amount of currency out of them via scarabs and Sextants? I don't, but I bet you anything that this will inevitably happen as a consequence of nerfing MF.


Or they could you know buss the stuff thats actual garbage so people want to do it.

What am I talking about the buff era is over.

"

AintCare wrote:

"

SilentSymphony wrote:

I'd have to do some tests its been a long time since i did as low as 200, maybe i will in the coming leagues and post some statistics here, If i make enough money i'll give it a shot.

If i lean towards nerfing iiq/iir its mostly because im afraid of the consequences of public perception if it were to ever become worse than the Archnemesis league was.

This sounds like you are playing Standard... which is not really for any reasonable discussion about balance... lets be honest.

But it would be nice if MF worked more like it did in D2. You get gold find- Horkers in Trav, MF chars farming rares and sets and specific locations.

here it's so one dimensional (if my assumption is right about currency farming) and its just a meme IMO

I'm really enjoying this league because of the area farming, this is straight up from D2. You get to farm various campaign acts for bases, then lower tier maps, and high end maps all for separate reasons.... I really missed that it seemed and its super fun. Its just a shame this league mechanic is going away.

I really only play Leagues anymore, I used to play standard exclusively but i couldn't keep up with the money people were bringing in from the leagues to the point inflation was beating me so i felt kind of forced to join the temp leagues and after the divine/exalt thing i just gave up entirely, all my stock was in exalted orbs because nobody would take anything else.

"

AintCare wrote:

I'm not even sure what your question is. you are also digressing a lot.

If you want to discuss my idea further I would like to establish few things first:

-are we talking Standard or League?

-what considers MF? IIQ, IIR, or some combination of both?

My idea is theoretical, I don't have an in-depth understanding of MF in PoE.

I assume 100 IIQ is the same as running the same map twice, so cutting down the time in half (ideally).

IIR is complete mystery to me, AFAIK we don't have tables like we did in D2. When I played ruthless, and took the 800% IIR from Rouge Exiles, it meant very little. No idea how this computes.

So if you still want to discuss the idea of making MF more meaningful (buff), considering my limited experience and the fact its theory only, let me know by answering the above questions so we can establish a baseline.

There is no digression, it is all some sort of misunderstanding of MF on your end and a lack of clarity with what your theoretical idea even is...also it doesn't matter in the slightest whether we are talking standard or league. Mf is MF no matter where it is. It's effect on drops is exactly the same whether you are in standard or playing the league. The gear is all the same. Legacy rares with iiq/iir rolls in standard make the average mf build stronger, but its standard so who really cares? This is a thread about nerfing magic find, and you are commenting in it which means you must have some base understanding of what magic find is in PoE. But it appears you do not by your own admission and what you are saying.

The theoretical idea doesn't get off the ground because it has no basis in the reality of PoE. It also doesn't fundamentally make sense. MF in PoE is a gear investment, the downsides being that you HAVE to use specific gear that have very little or very low actual boosts to anything useful for ANY build. Or they have downright penalties such as ventors and greed's embrace.

Ventors Rings: huge variability in stats, extremely expensive to buy good ones. Rare drops
Greed's Embrace: besides the mf its basically one big penalty
Sadima's: laughable, negligible stats other than quant
Goldwyrm: 50% fire resist is great, all the rest of it is total crap
Bisco's Collar (if you use it): situational, and no other stats
Bisco's Leash: cold resist great but a wide range and max is at a t3 roll. Nothing else going for it.

Slap on all this gear and look at all the stuff you LOSE. There is enormous downsides and high cost to make an mf build work. We don't need more penalties just because someone who invests in it might get a few extra divines. That is the whole reason they invested in the first place. Same as any other player investing in a build to upgrade their clearspeed or tackle certain content.

I don't understand why people have an issue with dedicated mf builds, but they DONT have a problem with dedicated boss builds, or dedicated delve builds, or dedicated clear builds, etc. This is what PoE is all aboug: you create a build that does what you want it to do in the best way possible. MF is not nearly so powerful on its own that it deserves all this negative attention. Even if you were to slap on all the best MF gear you can get, you aren't suddenly raining divines.


The real problem is group play and how mf interacts (exponentially increased), but that doesn't matter to me because I don't play in groups.

"

Warvald wrote:

I don't think people understand the long-term consequences this will bring outside of MF.

If GGG nerfs MF and makes high-investment mapping less viable, everyone will flock to league content that doesn't depend on MF or party bonuses (ex. Expedition, Heist, Delve city nodes, Essence). Eventually GGG will have to nerf those in order to encourage people play other content again. Have you all seen what they did to Abyss and Breach lately? They suck.

Do you want leagues like Expedition or Essence to require the same absurd level of investment to get any good amount of currency out of them via scarabs and Sextants? I don't, but I bet you anything that this will inevitably happen as a consequence of nerfing MF.


Or they could you know buss the stuff thats actual garbage so people want to do it.

What am I talking about the buff era is over.

Anybody gonna tell him that technically Breach and Abyss got buffed, but their rewards are worse than ever before?

No thanks, I'd rather GGG not "buff" "actual garbage" and instead leave MF as is so they don't later nerf the non-MF content when they become popular.

"

Pizzarugi wrote:

Anybody gonna tell him that technically Breach and Abyss got buffed, but their rewards are worse than ever before?

No thanks, I'd rather GGG not "buff" "actual garbage" and instead leave MF as is so they don't later nerf the non-MF content when they become popular.

Problem is, PoE (and by extension GGG) is in an unfixable situation. Years of buffs have left most of the player base expectations and experience at a certain level, and any attempt to rein in all that unchecked creep will be met with outrage. At the same time, they can't simply buff things because the systems that are in place would just end up spewing more crap, or TOO much loot to the point where the market will just correct upwards and nothing will really change.

I honestly think the only solution, if we are talking about loot and ways to get loot, is an entirely new drop system. Short of that, we are just bouncing back and forth between buffs and nerfs each league with outrage on all sides, and no actual solutions to the underlying problems.

Food for thought: Here's an example of a totally new system. Instead of iiq/iir, have an item-find based stat. Instead of 20% increased rarity, you can roll 20% increased chance of drops being "belts" or something similar.