well D4 was a dissapointment why delay league becuz of it?

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DarthSki44 wrote:

but they didn't seem to get significnatly larger traction.

Maybe not, but a handful of people made PoE in the beginning, and it was created, launched, had its growth and peak in the middle of D3's "massive, decade-long success" - so "no competition" is unfair to say the least. Or straight out BS, as some would say. They had enough traction to become a pretty sizeable company these days, releasing this non-traction game on 'all' platforms, with a sequel and a mobile version coming, whatever the latter is worth.

I know you don't believe in the "deep, complex games that requires a lot of time investment will never get the same traction as easier, less complex games that don't require a lot of time investment" argument, even though that argument will always be true for 99% of games.

D3 was never a competitor to PoE, but D4 is? Even though it has WAY more in common with D3 than it has with PoE, despite its monetization? Nah, I think D3 is being name-dropped and used as a measuring stick way to much in here by you, me and everyone else to not be considered a competitor.

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Phrazz wrote:

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

but they didn't seem to get significnatly larger traction.

Maybe not, but a handful of people made PoE in the beginning, and it was created, launched, had its growth and peak in the middle of D3's "massive, decade-long success" - so "no competition" is unfair to say the least. Or straight out BS, as some would say. They had enough traction to become a pretty sizeable company these days, releasing this non-traction game on 'all' platforms, with a sequel and a mobile version coming, whatever the latter is worth.

I know you don't believe in the "deep, complex games that requires a lot of time investment will never get the same traction as easier, less complex games that don't require a lot of time investment" argument, even though that argument will always be true for 99% of games.

D3 was never a competitor to PoE, but D4 is? Even though it has WAY more in common with D3 than it has with PoE, despite its monetization? Nah, I think D3 is being name-dropped and used as a measuring stick way to much in here by you, me and everyone else to not be considered a competitor.

I think saying "no competition" is obviously hyperbole, and is just part of an expression. It's more meant to convey "very little, not so much, insignificant", or whatever else you want to use. In this particular thread I said "not much", which is true right? Is Wolcen or Grim Dawn, or Torchlight, or whatever other arpg you want to name somewhat recently a significant competitor? If not then what are we disagreeing on? D3 was? Really?

Also I don't know what level of complexity is the breakpoint either. What if D4 paragon boards developed into a more complex system? What if there are crafting updates (not PoE level) in years to come. What if set items and uniques provide interesting builds and character defining abilities? It doesn't have to be such extremes in comparison when discussing depth.

Anyways, if you think D4 is the same game as D3 fine, but I don't agree. And if not, and you think it's different, then it stands to reason D4 can, and imo, will compete differently with PoE moving forward.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I guess we will just have to see.

Typically being out first in the business world is superior, and D4 is going to have a number of months at to improve, and launch their seasonal model. PoE is going to suffer losses all the way up to when PoE2 comes out, no matter how you look at it.

There is almost zero chance D4 gets worse over time with live service, and we don't even know what the scope will be seasonally. It seems reasonable to me that it will do that extremely well.

Who knows maybe I have this totally wrong lol.

Edit: also buying D4 for $70-100 fully expecting to play for a bit and never touch it again is pretty interesting. I'm sure that works out OK on the Blizz end...

that is normal for me. But this time i have buyers remorse. Its great for Blizz though.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

D3 was? Really?

Yes, really. It's so freakin' strange to me that someone can put D3 on a pedestal to the a degree you do, while at the same time trivialize the amount of competition PoE has had.

You are fully aware that I'm not the biggest fan of D3, but as you have said 3290587 times; it's the biggest, highest-grossing ARPG of all time. And PoE ENTIRE existence has been alongside that. It's the biggest competition possible in terms of your beloved numbers - within the genre.

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JakeCourtney wrote:

The problem is that D4 proves that these games can actually have slower-paced, REAL game play feel and not just be a SPODE the screen cookie-clicker like Path of Exile has become.

The history of the genre 'proves' that, not D4. If you'd like a list of people's favorite ARPGs that aren't one click screen explode I know the old-hats here would be thrilled to talk about them and their respective merits.

Also there are myriad ways you can play PoE and engage enemies in fair combat, you just choose not to.

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Phrazz wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

D3 was? Really?

Yes, really. It's so freakin' strange to me that someone can put D3 on a pedestal to the a degree you do, while at the same time trivialize the amount of competition PoE has had.

You are fully aware that I'm not the biggest fan of D3, but as you have said 3290587 times; it's the biggest, highest-grossing ARPG of all time. And PoE ENTIRE existence has been alongside that. It's the biggest competition possible in terms of your beloved numbers - within the genre.

How is this strange? The model was totally different, cmon Phrazz. The amount of live service, patching, and updates that D3 got compared to PoE is not comparable. But that's how GGG makes their money.

What does that have to do with D3 sales over that time? PoE is free ffs! D3 sold 65 million total copies. Same genre yes, totally different measurements.

If you take snapshots of sales by year or month on average D3 probably outperformed PoE in terms of revenue. But if you look at player concurrency quarterly on average I'm sure PoE often had more active players during leagues. How the hell is that directly competitive if the revenue streams are totally different, with different expectations from the developer?

For example, you could buy D3, play it for two hours, stop, download PoE and never touch D3 again. Guess what, Blizzard fully monetized you. Who's the "winner" in this competition? Was it a competition? What's the measuring point?

Maybe we are talking past each other again, but the D4 live service model and the PoE live service model (aside from the initial cost) is way more of a ongoing competitive situation.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Maybe we are talking past each other again

We clearly are.

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Phrazz wrote:

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

Maybe we are talking past each other again

We clearly are.

I mean what do you want me to admit or concde here in terms of of the question you had?

That D3 and PoE were actually in direct competition, where D3 was one of the most successful P2P games in terms of sales in history, and PoE survived in its F2P niche and grew over that time to a very respectable established game?

Sure, take it.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I mean what do you want me to admit or concde here in terms of of the question you had?

I'm talking about the competition over ARPG players. Don't care about the corporate stuff, money or the monetization side of things. And that PoE and D3 were, to a certain degree, competing over a lot of the same players. And despite that, PoE didn't just manage to hold a lot of those players, they grew alongside that behemoth, actually manage to compete alongside D3. How many PoE players do you think have never tried D3?

So from that point of view? Of course PoE had/have massive competition, because they fought over "the same" players, competing over their time. How many PoE players do you think have never tried D3?

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Phrazz wrote:

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

I mean what do you want me to admit or concde here in terms of of the question you had?

I'm talking about the competition over ARPG players. Don't care about the corporate stuff, money or the monetization side of things. And that PoE and D3 were, to a certain degree, competing over a lot of the same players. And despite that, PoE didn't just manage to hold a lot of those players, they grew alongside that behemoth, actually manage to compete alongside D3. How many PoE players do you think have never tried D3?

So from that point of view? Of course PoE had/have massive competition, because they fought over "the same" players, competing over their time. How many PoE players do you think have never tried D3?

OK so did PoE win this competition, for arguments sake? Is that what you are saying if we remove most metrics? Or was this simply a competition that existed with no winners and just mentioning both the games were "successful" at the same time?

I guess I don't know where we are going with this beyond PoE grew in the last 10 years along side of D3. I cannot argue with that, it's totally true. I have no idea what that means to you though in terms of some sort of conclusions you draw from it?