Streamers are all gushing over D4 - what am I missing? It seems extremely shallow compared to POE

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esostaks wrote:

Interestingly I was just thinking to myself recently that D4 is more a competitor to Lost Ark than it is to PoE, because it seems that D4 wants to go MMO route rather than classical ARPG. So naturally one part of the playerbase are already voicing their concerns in D4 forums because they prefer a pure ARPG experience and not an MMO.

It's hard to say without seeing the full game, much like discussing POE 4.0 is premature with how little information we have, but if I were looking forward to D4 (I'm not) I would be concerned about all the MMO elements. I know some people like both genres, so it will have staying power with that group, but anyone looking for a more traditional ARPG will probably take exception to the MMO stuff. How much it bothers them is hard to say until full release.

If I had to field a guess based purely on the limited information available, it will pull from Lost Ark and WoW more, and push D2 enthusiasts away. But again, that's premature.

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Nubatron wrote:

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esostaks wrote:

Interestingly I was just thinking to myself recently that D4 is more a competitor to Lost Ark than it is to PoE, because it seems that D4 wants to go MMO route rather than classical ARPG. So naturally one part of the playerbase are already voicing their concerns in D4 forums because they prefer a pure ARPG experience and not an MMO.

It's hard to say without seeing the full game, much like discussing POE 4.0 is premature with how little information we have, but if I were looking forward to D4 (I'm not) I would be concerned about all the MMO elements. I know some people like both genres, so it will have staying power with that group, but anyone looking for a more traditional ARPG will probably take exception to the MMO stuff. How much it bothers them is hard to say until full release.

If I had to field a guess based purely on the limited information available, it will pull from Lost Ark and WoW more, and push D2 enthusiasts away. But again, that's premature.

Actually I think it's even more simple than that.

D4 is trying to draw from a large set of different marketplace pools, under the assumption most gamers play a variety of genres & on a variety of gaming platforms. And imo they would be right in this regard.

There are going to be crossovers from all sorts of games. LA, WoW, FFXIV, Destiny2, PoE, LE, just to name a few.

From the point view of a casual or people who didn't play aRPG before, DiabloIV looks good. These people didn't care about builds, items, itemization, drops, etc. I think they will care about how Blizzard monetize the game though. And how often the new contents will be added in future expansions.

As long as Blizz don't do something stoopid or excessively greedy then Diablo IV is here to stay. It's still Activision Blizzard after all. Many players hated and still play their games.

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Networm13 wrote:

From the point view of a casual or people who didn't play aRPG before, DiabloIV looks good. These people didn't care about builds, items, itemization, drops, etc. I think they will care about how Blizzard monetize the game though. And how often the new contents will be added in future expansions.

As long as Blizz don't do something stoopid or excessively greedy then Diablo IV is here to stay. It's still Activision Blizzard after all. Many players hated and still play their games.

I don't think a lot of people are arguing that D4 will fail. Of course it will be fine, at least for a while.

It is shallow.

But guess what.

The barrier to entry, and the on boarding is as fluid as water. So of course they will be gushing. Because within 1 or 2 days, they can understand enough about the game to just GO PLAY THE DAMN GAME! It eventually gets predictable and linear after a while. But its Diablo.

Path of Exile is the far superior game. But it has terrible on boarding, and terrible barrier to entry. Something as simple as a fucking noob build auto fill with a side context for stats on items to look for would easily flip that narrative on its head. It doesn't even have to be shaper or elder viable. It can just be T10 map viable or something along those lines and it would at least help players get past the (WTF AM I LOOKING AT) Overwhelm phase of the game so they can actually focus on the content that all these damn writers and graphics artists spent creating.

A default witch passive tree for chaos dot, necromancy, Fireballs, arc lightning, and say Freezing Pulse, would be great guided builds for people to eventually warm up and feel comfortable enough with the systems to actually delve deeper into the systems. And then just do a couple of these guided paths across other ascendancies. They don't have to be the best, but it would help a ton if people didn't have to dig into a wiki before booting up the damn game.

Let people warm up to the game instead of dumping them into the deep end with an infinite list of possibility and no actual way of knowing wtf is going on without tabbing and watching someone elses content. Content creators are great, but eventually they have lives to live and things to do. They can't be there all the time.

And also, make it more obvious of wtf is going on with these icons for extra content. Things like Delve are explained pretty well, Blight not so much, Stuff like syndicate, (I've been playing for a long time and I still have no idea wtf is going on in syndicate, like why should I care if members hate each other or are allies? Divisions? wtf?) Less long form reading, more short contextual visuals or maybe even changes in wording can go a long way.

I'm not saying GGG needs to FULLY FOCUS on new players. But for gods sake throw them a bone. You don't need a masters degree to play this damn game, and new players shouldn't feel like you do.

They should feel like:

"Yes, playing this game is possible, and if you focus enough on it, you can make insane godlike things happen"

They shouldn't feel like:

"Playing this game requires a PHD, plus you need to download 8 different tools, watch 10 videos about strength stats, spend 4 hours watching a seminar on crafting, Just to beat act 1"

Should I be wearing armor based equipment? Energy Shield based equipment? Evasion based equipment? Does the game directly display which sets favor socket colors? I'm level 25 and have 4 extra skill points, where do I even put them? Can I fix those mistakes? Should I start over? I really like the potential of this game but I don't like how difficult it is to correct mistakes I'm level 30 btw. Who is shaper and how do I get to him? Should I be using this unique sword? Is this weapon better than this one? My resistances just got demolished after that act and now I'm dying, how do I get more resistances to get past act 6? I've wasted all my chromatic orbs trying to put blue sockets on this red armor why isn't it working? This thing gave me a quest to defeat the memory of the elder in the shapers realm where even is that? Etc etc shit new players say.


Why GGG hasn't done it yet...I have no fucking clue.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Actually I think it's even more simple than that.

D4 is trying to draw from a large set of different marketplace pools, under the assumption most gamers play a variety of genres & on a variety of gaming platforms. And imo they would be right in this regard.

There are going to be crossovers from all sorts of games. LA, WoW, FFXIV, Destiny2, PoE, LE, just to name a few.

Maybe.

Unfortunately, I think it will take a year or two before we actually know the answer though. People can put up with things they don't like for a while if there are elements of things they do enjoy. I think a prime example is D3 refugees who came to POE. They could handle the elements they didn't like for a while, but eventually the new car smell fades and all the subjectively less enjoyable things become more annoying.

As an example, I may be able to play D4 for a bit and enjoy the graphics or the few overlaps with ARPGs, but things like a world boss at a certain time that dictates I play at that time and with a bunch of people I don't care about at all would eat at me more and more.

I guess 2024 this time next year might have a lot more information for us to examine.

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Nubatron wrote:

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esostaks wrote:

Interestingly I was just thinking to myself recently that D4 is more a competitor to Lost Ark than it is to PoE, because it seems that D4 wants to go MMO route rather than classical ARPG. So naturally one part of the playerbase are already voicing their concerns in D4 forums because they prefer a pure ARPG experience and not an MMO.

It's hard to say without seeing the full game, much like discussing POE 4.0 is premature with how little information we have, but if I were looking forward to D4 (I'm not) I would be concerned about all the MMO elements. I know some people like both genres, so it will have staying power with that group, but anyone looking for a more traditional ARPG will probably take exception to the MMO stuff. How much it bothers them is hard to say until full release.

If I had to field a guess based purely on the limited information available, it will pull from Lost Ark and WoW more, and push D2 enthusiasts away. But again, that's premature.

You have to ask yourself how big this Arpg purist audience actually is, too. And then you dont know how much this actually bothers people.

PoE having shared towns in 2011-2012 was pretty MMO-like at the time, too. Not even D3 has that. That is an MMO element. They even ran events back then, pvp events and whatnot, where people could enter your areas and kill you, without your consent. We also basically have MMO player housing, with hideouts.

I think people like MMO qualities way more than realized, or these games wouldn't keep incorporating them.

I'm not concerned at all about the MMO elements, because I genuinely believe people enjoy them to an extent.

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Destructodave wrote:

You have to ask yourself how big this Arpg purist audience actually is, too. And then you dont know how much this actually bothers people.

PoE having shared towns in 2011-2012 was pretty MMO-like at the time, too. Not even D3 has that. That is an MMO element. They even ran events back then, pvp events and whatnot, where people could enter your areas and kill you, without your consent. We also basically have MMO player housing, with hideouts.

I think people like MMO qualities way more than realized, or these games wouldn't keep incorporating them.

I'm not concerned at all about the MMO elements, because I genuinely believe people enjoy them to an extent.

Being able to invade instances and kill people isn't unique to MMOs at all. POE not having it is not for a lack of trying. They even had a league dedicated to trying to pull people into PVP and challenges associated with it. Leo was a master for that express purpose. D2 clearly had/has PVP and the ability to invade and kill other players. I think the main distinguishing thing between MMO PVP and ARPG PVP is the total number of people fighting. The few MMOs I have played included a PVP heavy game (Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning); and in each of them battles were a large group vs. a large group rather than a 1v1 or few vs a few in an ARPG like PVP.

I can't speak to the amount of people that will view that crossover as appealing or appalling. Lost Ark is probably the closest thing to what I think D4 is, and Lost Ark didn't really impact POE longterm. If I were to use that as a model for what happens, the answer is not much. Diablo has a history of being an ARPG through D2 and to a lesser extent, D3 (it felt more like an arcade type game). Those players will give D4 more of a chance than Lost Ark would have gotten.

We won't really know the answer for a long while. The initial uptake of D4 will be a terrible metric to measure this against. As an example, D3 was not my cup of tea, but I bought a copy so I'm included in the initial purchase value. The real answer will take time to see how many people enjoy the marriage of MMO like end games with a (formerly?) ARPG franchise.

I root hard for Diablo 4 to be great. The better it is, the more it will push PoE2, just how PoE pushed D4.

Also, a million rules and convoluted formulas isn't depth, boardgames learned it ages ago. Simple rules but depth in strategy and tactics, sure complexity might bring some depth, but it's more often than not just clutter. If huge strategy games can trim the complexity fat and keep the depth, then an ARPG surely can. I love PoE for many things, but not sure about that deep - shallow dichotomy here PoE vs D4.

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Networm13 wrote:

From the point view of a casual or people who didn't play aRPG before, DiabloIV looks good. These people didn't care about builds, items, itemization, drops, etc. I think they will care about how Blizzard monetize the game though. And how often the new contents will be added in future expansions.

Depends if they start to sell full paid content dlcs right away or not.
Likely the case (after DI and the shitty wow expansion) but hey I guess some might like it to spend another 70 bucks for 10h of additional content.