It's time for GGG to take back reigns of trade for the sake of the game

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Z3RoNightMare wrote:

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Phrazz wrote:

I've never seen a "public fight" against it, I've never seen a post saying "Good job on the war on RMT, devs". I've never seem a community happy about how devs are fighting RMT. And that should be pretty exceptional, as people in this thread claims is so freakin' easy to do.

Because the effect is rather obvious, as I've linked before. It makes them aware. Although it's quite simple for GGG to just say "We're aware and are fighting it to the fullest", as long as they don't go in detail on how. So far, not a squeak.

I dont agree with this actually. People engaging in RMT know it's against ToS. They know GGG has banned people before. This isn't an awareness issue on either side, its an enforcement issue.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I dont agree with this actually. People engaging in RMT know it's against ToS. They know GGG has banned people before. This isn't an awareness issue on either side, its an enforcement issue.

Aware in the sense that they know people are actively trying to catch them, which makes them reinforce their cares to evade being caught. It's easier to catch a cat that is unaware than one that is.

The problem is that people who were blatantly RMTng weren't being caught, which is what prompted the question that GGG may be doing a lot less than the bare minimum to catch them.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Well I dont know why GGG is so silent on ToS enforcement when it comes to bans, RMT or otherwise. Plenty of developers release data like this during "ban waves" for cheating or mass ToS issues. Dota 2 yesterday announced a 40k player ban for example. Destiny 2 (Bungie), is another that is not afraid to take action and make it public.

I would say that there is a lot of RMT happening in PoE, and while enforcement is anecdotal, because GGG is mum on this, there are plenty of people indicating they know people doing it, doing it themselves, or have tracked individuals that seemingly have no action taken. I've never personally engaged in RMT either, but I don't have a head buried in the sand on it. The information is out there if interested.

Phrazz's question is quite valid still. What would a good job look like? And even further, his point of never seeing a kudos post for a developer about how they handled RMT is quite prescient. Even during the big bot ban a few years ago there wasn't some big thank you to GGG on an adjacent topic. On the contrary, I seem to recall people noticed that there were still bots as if they were legitimately shocked. I honest to god believe people have fooled themself into thinking there is a golden bullet and a solution that leads to it being gone. And even further, anything short of that means they failed. That's why there is a lack of acknowledgements of success from any community in my opinion.

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Nubatron wrote:

Phrazz's question is quite valid still. What would a good job look like?

It would look like massively inflated RMT prices. It would look like people complaining all over the cheat forums. It would look like level 20 witch bots not rampantly selling currency. It would look like divines being 100c or less and not 200+c or more. It would look like they actually care.

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Nulledout wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

Phrazz's question is quite valid still. What would a good job look like?

It would look like massively inflated RMT prices. It would look like people complaining all over the cheat forums. It would look like level 20 witch bots not rampantly selling currency. It would look like divines being 100c or less and not 200+c or more. It would look like they actually care.

That's just a relative change to what it is now. I'm pretty sure people would still complain if that were the case as well.

And those complaints on the RMT forum would be fleeting as anyone who wasn't comfortable with the new norm of what the market is would find a new place to do it and move on. I don't believe that would be widely accepted as a good job. The goal posts would just move.

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Nubatron wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Well I dont know why GGG is so silent on ToS enforcement when it comes to bans, RMT or otherwise. Plenty of developers release data like this during "ban waves" for cheating or mass ToS issues. Dota 2 yesterday announced a 40k player ban for example. Destiny 2 (Bungie), is another that is not afraid to take action and make it public.

I would say that there is a lot of RMT happening in PoE, and while enforcement is anecdotal, because GGG is mum on this, there are plenty of people indicating they know people doing it, doing it themselves, or have tracked individuals that seemingly have no action taken. I've never personally engaged in RMT either, but I don't have a head buried in the sand on it. The information is out there if interested.

Phrazz's question is quite valid still. What would a good job look like? And even further, his point of never seeing a kudos post for a developer about how they handled RMT is quite prescient. Even during the big bot ban a few years ago there wasn't some big thank you to GGG on an adjacent topic. On the contrary, I seem to recall people noticed that there were still bots as if they were legitimately shocked. I honest to god believe people have fooled themself into thinking there is a golden bullet and a solution that leads to it being gone. And even further, anything short of that means they failed. That's why there is a lack of acknowledgements of success from any community in my opinion.

I'd argue it's more of what does a bad job look like? And if you think it's ok here now, that's fine, people just might disagree. If it was a good job, we wouldnt hear much, or see much about it. That's how you know it's working.

As far as community reaction to enforcement of cheating and ToS violations I dont know what to tell you or know what other communities you might be involved in. I've seen numerous ban hammer posts in multiple games that are meet with praise (providing false positives were not caught up in it)

I dont know where you and Phrazz are going with this line of thinking/discussion anyways?

Essentially I'm getting the "seems ok to me, or ignorance is bliss" type of attitude. Which I guess is fine, but I'm not personally going that route for sure.

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Nubatron wrote:

I honest to god believe people have fooled themselves into thinking there is a golden bullet and a solution that leads to it being gone. And even further, anything short of that means they failed. That's why there is a lack of acknowledgements of success from any community in my opinion.

None here said it's possible to completely stop it, only that relinquishing their grip from trade would do a lot of good, more than the harm you baselessly keeps reminding everyone of.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I dont know where you and Phrazz are going with this line of thinking/discussion anyways?

Personally, fighting so much against having GGG commit heavily against RMT, feels like he's doing RMT himself. What's realistically the other answer to defend it so vigorously that it's pointless?

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I'd argue it's more of what does a bad job look like? And if you think it's ok here now, that's fine, people just might disagree. If it was a good job, we wouldnt hear much, or see much about it. That's how you know it's working.

As far as community reaction to enforcement of cheating and ToS violations I dont know what to tell you or know what other communities you might be involved in. I've seen numerous ban hammer posts in multiple games that are meet with praise (providing false positives were not caught up in it)

I dont know where you and Phrazz are going with this line of thinking/discussion anyways?

Essentially I'm getting the "seems ok to me, or ignorance is bliss" type of attitude. Which I guess is fine, but I'm not personally going that route for sure.

You're misreading the vibe.

My biggest concern about a torches and pitchfork mob is that they cause an overreaction to it that is overly aggressive with their enforcement, causing a lot of innocent people to lose their accounts. There needs to be a more reasonable and pragmatic approach, which includes pointing out the torches and pitchfork crowd needs held in somewhat check. As I stated earlier, it's very easy for the cure to be worse than the disease. I think you even stated that the occasional false positive is perfectly fine. Would you be fine if you were the false positive? I would be absolutely furious if I was falsely accused and caught up in a wave that was not careful.

There are people in this thread that have implied if not outright said you can stop RMT. I view that as an absolutely ridiculous stance. They will never be appeased.

And to be crystal clear, I'm fine with GGG doing more to stop RMT as long as they are careful to not indict innocent players. That's the line that I draw. Everything before that line is fair game in my mind. If that's where we are now, and I have no clue just like everyone else in this thread, then I accept that. I suspect they could do more, but that's all it is: suspicion.

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Nubatron wrote:

There are people in this thread that have implied if not outright said you can stop RMT. I view that as an absolutely ridiculous stance. They will never be appeased.

You're implying just as much that it can't be stopped. Don't play innocent.

Censure and implying ignorance is what guilty people do, it's what TFT is doing.

Crime can't be stopped, that's a fact. Should the police disband, then?

at this point it might be wise for GGG to disable trading until they can figure this out. People be mad angry.