poe is still the most p2w game ive ever played

What a weird topic and take but I will take the bait. One could argue that the game is not enjoyable without additional stash tabs and I'd agree. But pay to win? Come one now. There is nothing to win in this game. You play for the occasional dopamine rush, personal goals or other forms of enjoyment only to be greeted with a soft reset every couple months. Pay for convenience at best but neither the stash tabs or cosmetic mtx of others affect you in any way. You lost me here. The only game in this genre I would even consider pay to win is Diablo Immortal. That one is straight up predatory.

Now Lost Ark is an interesting one. From early access to summer last year I played around 1500 hours and never once thought that game was pay to win either. Pay to skip content at best. You could have spent a couple thousand $ early to be 1490, which was max ilvl for a good while, and still wait for content like everyone else. By the time that game eventually released content appropriate for that ilvl everyone else actively playing already caught up, even full free to play players.

That game was and probably still is absurdly mismanaged by AGS, is driven by horrible community practices such as gatekeeping and encouraging bots but calling it pay to win is a stretch in my opinion. Again, what exactly was there to win? The non existant open world pvp, equalized arena pvp, equalized hellmode raids? That game is a daily chore simulator with zero competitive aspects to it. If winning by your definition is flexing with a higher number on some pixel then yes, probably.

Can't comment on Genshin because the little self respect I have towards gaming doesn't allow me to touch gacha titles. My point is if you truly believe Path of Exile is "the most pay to win game you've ever played" then you either barely played any games at all or have some super weird definition of things.

Lots of semantics here over these last few pages. Again, Id go back to what I said very early on in the thread. What exactly is there to "win" in PoE? Its entirely subjective in a PvE game. Is beating Kitiva winning? Yellow maps? Maven? Full Atlas unlock? Global Market Domination in trade legaue?

So yes, stash tabs will not help you beat the campaign or directly help your character. That's not an argument anyone with any sort of credibility will make. That said PoE is a loot based arpg, with many items to collect. Currency, Fragments, Maps, and an assload of bloated league mechanic items. To make the argument that stash tabs are optional, while true, is also completely laughable for anyone that actually plays the game.

GGG knows this and heavily monetizes stash space. I mean just click on the stash space MTX options, and look at how much it ends up costing you. Its not even remotely reasonable just for stash space. 15 bucks for a quad tab? $14 for the uniques? Currency and Maps tabs? You are almost at AAA game pricepoint already, just to store shit you find. And wow is there shit to find. I mean cmon people.

And look, I've spend like $3k in 10 years on PoE. So this isnt about being cheap or having a skewed opinion. If other games offer the same QoL or Time Savers in a PvE game its the same thing. It might be subjective, it terms of what a player considers "winning", but it's still P2W in that landscape. I recognize it, and its something I accept (for every game I play)

In terms of PoE, many of those critical tabs should be free imo, but again, GGG knows this is a big money maker. That should tell you all you need to know. Yeah GGG needs to make money, but it should be on all the "optional" mtx, battle passes, and gamba boxes. Not fucking people over in terms of QoL and accessibility, where frustration becomes a monetization stream.

The monetization model isnt changing however, so it not like players are effecting change. PoE is clearly designed to have P2W elements, whatever you consider that to be, in an effort to make money. Most people accept that. The hardline defenders in this thread...I mean...what are you trying to debate? That what we see with our own eyes isnt happening? That's next level copium on behalf of GGG. Of course PoE is P2W. To what degree you consider that to be is just an opinion on the subject.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

The hardline defenders in this thread...I mean...what are you trying to debate?

I think it all boils down to your subjective view on fairness - and your subjective definition of what a F2P game 'should be'.

Would I be OK with 'having' to pay a few bucks for stash tabs in a AAA priced game? Of course not; when I pay full price for a game, I expect to get the full package (this goes for MTX too, but that ship has sailed long ago). Am I OK with spending a few bucks to enhance my experience in a game that pushes out more 'free' content in a year, than 'most' AAA titles push out every decade? Yes, I am. Do I view the fact that they are gating something as important as stash tabs behind a paywall as 'unfair'? Not really, when you actually think about the amount of content you can experience for free - as long as you like.

That said, I think one premium tab (maybe even a premium quad) should be rewarded upon beating Kitava. I think that would create a nice account progression, where you get an entry into trading at a point in the game where it's natural to start learning that side of the game.

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Phrazz wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

The hardline defenders in this thread...I mean...what are you trying to debate?

I think it all boils down to your subjective view on fairness - and your subjective definition of what a F2P game 'should be'.

Would I be OK with 'having' to pay a few bucks for stash tabs in a AAA priced game? Of course not; when I pay full price for a game, I expect to get the full package (this goes for MTX too, but that ship has sailed long ago). Am I OK with spending a few bucks to enhance my experience in a game that pushes out more 'free' content in a year, than 'most' AAA titles push out every decade? Yes, I am. Do I view the fact that they are gating something as important as stash tabs behind a paywall as 'unfair'? Not really, when you actually think about the amount of content you can experience for free - as long as you like.

That said, I think one premium tab (maybe even a premium quad) should be rewarded upon beating Kitava. I think that would create a nice account progression, where you get an entry into trading at a point in the game where it's natural to start learning that side of the game.

Well we both agree its subjective. I dont think GGG should monetize frustration and inconvenience with the stash tabs fully knowing that the game throws an absurd amount of loot at you.

At minimum, the currency, map, and fragments tabs should be free & part of the game, and at least one premium tab so that you can engage in trade. They should probably do more than that, but I think it's a decent starting point. Right now its completely anti-player and I dont know how anyone could argue that...

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Phrazz wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

The hardline defenders in this thread...I mean...what are you trying to debate?

I think it all boils down to your subjective view on fairness - and your subjective definition of what a F2P game 'should be'.

Would I be OK with 'having' to pay a few bucks for stash tabs in a AAA priced game? Of course not; when I pay full price for a game, I expect to get the full package (this goes for MTX too, but that ship has sailed long ago). Am I OK with spending a few bucks to enhance my experience in a game that pushes out more 'free' content in a year, than 'most' AAA titles push out every decade? Yes, I am. Do I view the fact that they are gating something as important as stash tabs behind a paywall as 'unfair'? Not really, when you actually think about the amount of content you can experience for free - as long as you like.

That said, I think one premium tab (maybe even a premium quad) should be rewarded upon beating Kitava. I think that would create a nice account progression, where you get an entry into trading at a point in the game where it's natural to start learning that side of the game.

Well we both agree its subjective. I dont think GGG should monetize frustration and inconvenience with the stash tabs fully knowing that the game throws an absurd amount of loot at you.

At minimum, the currency, map, and fragments tabs should be free & part of the game, and at least one premium tab so that you can engage in trade. They should probably do more than that, but I think it's a decent starting point. Right now its completely anti-player and I dont know how anyone could argue that...

I mean they handed out a free heist and expedition stash. Could have been a paid one but I feel like most people especially the "full innocent f2p" folk asks for too much free stuff these days in every game. So it's not like we don't get anything for free.

The game is out since years and ggg sticked with the paid tabs ever since they exist so don't expect any huge freebie changes, other than a few mtx boxes ever here and there.
Unlike other games you don't have to pay a monthly subscription, or any further cost of any expansion.
Server don't grow for free on trees after all and even ggg needs some money for further development and the server cost to keep the f2p game alive. Just like every f2p game out there.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

At minimum, the currency, map, and fragments tabs should be free & part of the game, and at least one premium tab so that you can engage in trade.

That's quite a lot...

You talk numbers in a lot of threads, and how "GGG can't possibly, willingly, let go of millions", yet you're asking for that exact thing in this thread. I sort of agree with the poster above me; I think people are asking for too much these days in F2P games, especially a pretty niche game like PoE - a game that will never reach 'millions' of players, like LoL or whatever, where a game survives based on cosmetics alone.

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Phrazz wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

At minimum, the currency, map, and fragments tabs should be free & part of the game, and at least one premium tab so that you can engage in trade.

That's quite a lot...

You talk numbers in a lot of threads, and how "GGG can't possibly, willingly, let go of millions", yet you're asking for that exact thing in this thread. I sort of agree with the poster above me; I think people are asking for too much these days in F2P games, especially a pretty niche game like PoE - a game that will never reach 'millions' of players, like LoL or whatever, where a game survives based on cosmetics alone.

That's interesting. You think offering a few very QoL heavy tabs would encourage less spending beyond their own worth? I would think not, but maybe. Personally I wouldnt be able to enjoy PoE without tab management, so perhaps I'm projecting a bit, but playing without them seems like an awful experience.

Edit: er maybe that's the point though? That's super cynical, but maybe GGG does want the experience to be so painful you buy tabs or quit? If you buy tabs you stay and play longer & spend more? But if that's true wouldnt the same logic hold on average if they offered some tabs for retention increases?

To be fair this is pipedream stuff. They couldnt possibly alienate all the players that had already paid for tabs, and then make'em free.

it doesnt have to be live or die by stash tabs. ggg only chooses to go this route because they decided to make every skin overpriced. these prices look like they were made up by some random out of touch billionaire who unironically would think a single banana is $10

games like league of legends have proven you can make a successful profit just off of skins alone, even back when that game was smaller in playerbase than poe. league skins sell because A: they legimately look amazing especially the spashart and B: riot hired someone who could slap on reasonable prices for said skins

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yamface wrote:

it doesnt have to be live or die by stash tabs. ggg only chooses to go this route because they decided to make every skin overpriced. these prices look like they were made up by some random out of touch billionaire who unironically would think a single banana is $10

games like league of legends have proven you can make a successful profit just off of skins alone, even back when that game was smaller in playerbase than poe. league skins sell because A: they legimately look amazing especially the spashart and B: riot hired someone who could slap on reasonable prices for said skins

I think that's up to everyone to decide. I personally think all the mtx are worth their money and they look all good in a different way.
Some games give you a one time usage on glamour so you can't just reuse your expensive purchase multiple times.
The value of each mtx is quite fair and even the price of a support pack is within a reasonable price range for the stuff you get. Not to mention that they are called "support packs" for reasons but you might be able to figure that out on your own.

Lol was has always been a big game even back in the days. It was always the best published moba on the market but also had quite a different quality back in the days. They were able to push up more of their quality over time cause they had more money to invest into even more quality. However they lost the quality of their gameplay over the past years.

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Pashid wrote:

I think that's up to everyone to decide.

a full skin set for all of your armor and weapon in poe is over $100
a legendary skin in league is $15

the league skin is higher quality, the poe skin adds more fps drops to your mapping experience

selling skins is a near 100% profit margin. you pay the team that designed and created the skins, you pay a minimal amount to market the skins on their own website, every other skin afterwards is a copy + paste to whoever buys them. its a money printer. yet theyre priced so that they wont ever sell except for the mediocre skin sets that come with supporter packs.