There are no builds in PoE. Everything is just exploiting, abusing, and gimmicks

"

Lynerus wrote:

Ive made like 8 different builds over the last 2 leagues and none of them are really playable

All of these builds are basically from the forum reddit youtube or poeninja (i feel poeninja is a REALLY bad place to get builds from)

well (channeling my inner "elitist"), then you've made zero builds in the last two leagues. You've COPIED blindly other people's builds without having any idea what they were intended to do. You are absolutely right, ninja is a terrible place to get builds because if you are just going from the top many of those builds are specialized to do one single thing, with VERY specific gear, or they are simply put together to GET on ninja. They may not actually be functional.

The only way to really, truly learn how to play PoE is to PLAY PoE. Copying a build is fun for some, but it isn't really teaching you anything. Just like how copying a paragraph right out of a textbook isn't teaching you the material in that textbook. You are not thinking about anything, letting someone else do all your thinking for you.

This is also a huge problem not necessarily with the game, but with the culture created around PoE. New players are explicitly told more often than not by streamers, by the website, by other players to copy a build in their first foray into PoE. NO NO NO!!!! This is part of what causes so many problems for newer players. Despite its lack of information, the BEST way to learn how to play this game is to actually PLAY THE DAMN GAME. Don't copy a build, don't watch videos, don't read wikis. Try something, fail at it, overcome the failure, try again. Copying a build will ALWAYS yield success, and we learn absolutely nothing if all we do is succeed. HUNDREDS of my past builds have failed at varying parts of the game. Some were boring, some wouldn't scale, some were too hard to gear, some I just completely messed up the passive tree. But because of all of those failures, I like to think that I understand most of the minutiae of creating and implementing a build idea, seeking or crafting gear for it, and creating an optimal passive tree for it. If I ONLY copied other people's builds, I would fall into the same cookie cutter pattern for every related build I find....because that is ALL I know. What I've been told, rather than what I've experienced.

Just like the title of this post: actually THINKING and creating new ways to deal with content is considered exploitative, abusive, or gimmicky. But in reality, it is those people who create these so-called gimmicks that really UNDERSTAND the game and can succeed at ANY build they set their minds to.

"

Lynerus wrote:

Lately i have been feeling like there are no builds in poe either

Ive made like 8 different builds over the last 2 leagues and none of them are really playable

All of these builds are basically from the forum reddit youtube or poeninja (i feel poeninja is a REALLY bad place to get builds from)

Can they do t1 maps? for the most part yes aside from a couple that even rares boss or league content was to hard for them

I keep aksing myself why would i play this build (even if it could do t16s) and i think the only answer would be that it wouldnt die as much as my wardloop

The only build i ever play anymore is wardloop because it is basically better then literally every other build ive made... and i die on it so many times its unreal but its dmg can clear stuff pretty easy

This league my wardloop is a lot worse then it was with all the nerfs to

I for one, im past copying guys from ninja. I think the way to go is look on ninja for wathever skill you want, take a diagonal peek at a few(lets say 3 or 4) guys who made it at least to 98 to confirm its viable and get a broad idea of the common points and them... read a guide... Gotta get the explanation of mechanics and stuff. Builds that work today are, if not gimmicky like OP feels, they do involve some sort of maximization that is often not aparent just by looking on poebuild

Its a fact you cant make a build work nowadays with just "pick skill, ramp related damage as much as possible, max resists and get life on every piece of gear with free prefix, get bunch of life nods and go", claiming at this day and age you can complete maps not dying to at least get level 93-ish with just capped resists and a set amount of life is bull, even characters with 13k combined life and shield and overcaped res can still get destroyed under the right circunstances, sometimes its as idiotic as getting stunned before the spell comes out. Game is much more unforgiving today than 2 years ago and keeps getting more so

Today we need maxed defensive layers, immunities to multiple kinds of stuff, damage to clear the screen fast as trading blows is simply not possible... Sure the gear power creep does allows all that, but you need to have some clear directions to check enough boxes, and checking those boxes cant be done going blind, as the defensive layers are aparently balanced considering they are capped

Standard people know very well how the game has ramped the difficulty over the patches: The amount of characters i have that once farmed pinnacles and now barely clear a yellow map is baffling

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

The only way to really, truly learn how to play PoE is to PLAY PoE. Copying a build is fun for some, but it isn't really teaching you anything. Just like how copying a paragraph right out of a textbook isn't teaching you the material in that textbook. You are not thinking about anything, letting someone else do all your thinking for you.

This is also a huge problem not necessarily with the game, but with the culture created around PoE. New players are explicitly told more often than not by streamers, by the website, by other players to copy a build in their first foray into PoE. NO NO NO!!!! This is part of what causes so many problems for newer players. Despite its lack of information, the BEST way to learn how to play this game is to actually PLAY THE DAMN GAME. Don't copy a build, don't watch videos, don't read wikis. Try something, fail at it, overcome the failure, try again. Copying a build will ALWAYS yield success, and we learn absolutely nothing if all we do is succeed.

Gonna be honest: You sound like those guys who think school is for losers...

Reading guides, wikis, peeking at ninja is like a school: We try to get the basic theory to not have to learn things by repeated failures. "The more you sweat in training, the less youll bleed in battle", yes?

Pratical experience means tanking large amounts of resources and time on attempts that might(and in poe, are LIKELY TO) fail. And often that failure could have been averted if you took a fraction of the time to study, rather than jump at the trial by fire and learning its bad to be on the receving end of the sword by getting stabbed

Also, pratical experience is just as kilely to fail as theorical: What people who always advocate pratice over theory tend to forget is that pratical experience is prone to devolve into complacence after you find some measure of sucess. If you find something that barely works and dont do the research to learn beyond that, youll just get yourself stuck on that spot. To say nothing of that super common guy who have vast amounts of experience that boils down to massive number of repeats of the same ineficient way

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

"

Lynerus wrote:

Ive made like 8 different builds over the last 2 leagues and none of them are really playable

All of these builds are basically from the forum reddit youtube or poeninja (i feel poeninja is a REALLY bad place to get builds from)

The only way to really, truly learn how to play PoE is to PLAY PoE. Copying a build is fun for some, but it isn't really teaching you anything. Just like how copying a paragraph right out of a textbook isn't teaching you the material in that textbook. You are not thinking about anything, letting someone else do all your thinking for you.

been there and done that. one character this league i decided i didn't want to "copy" people so i went on my own.

Bladestorm/Bleed Gladiator
had max block for attack and spell (or as high as i could get them with the glad nerfs)
almost 6k health
max resist
20ish chaos resist
the surrender shield
level 20 quality gem

guess where this character is now? trash as it can barely do red tier maps if i want to spend 5 minutes killing a boss.

"

Orbaal wrote:

If only the guys who are struggling would ask and try to learn, we all could move on and improve instead of playing the blaming game.

But is it not fair to suggest that the game learning curve does not support new players or players who want to create their own builds?

Is it impossible to discuss game elements that are not new-player friendly without becoming (to you) someone who is 'blaming' the game?


To then have people who have many thousands of hours of play time, and hundreds more every 3 months, say "Oh its easy" is not particularly helpful.

There is a difference between whining and blaming, and making a critique of the game design.

I am not calling you a white knight, but I think there are people who see any criticism or even implied criticism as a personal attack on GGG and themselves, and will adamantly fight it no matter how valid (or invalid, to be fair).

"

Orbaal wrote:

Im still learning, havent stopped doing that.
Also Im happy to share what Ive learned so far.
Because of that, Im very aware how hard it is to learn this game - doesnt mean its impossible tho.

If only the guys who are struggling would ask and try to learn, we all could move on and improve instead of playing the blaming game.

+1000

You've likely noticed, the feedback section is filled with many passive learners and almost no active learners.

So asking for help from other players, engaging with the material, or seeking out knowledge on their own, are tools many just dont have since they refuse to practice it.

They use language of "having to look up" as if its an irregular task to look at outside sources, which is concerning for them as individuals 🤣.

"

trixxar wrote:

But is it not fair to suggest that the game learning curve does not support new players or players who want to create their own builds?

Is it impossible to discuss game elements that are not new-player friendly without becoming (to you) someone who is 'blaming' the game?

Discussing stuff is fine. PoE is a messy and flawed game.
I said that time and again.
Thats not where we disagree.


Instead of the payers being responsible to improve themselves and eventually achieve whatever it is they want to achieve, some players would rather have GGG responsible to "improve" the game to a point where those players can achieve whatever they want to achieve without having to do anything themselves.
This is where we fundamentally disagree.

I dont think the game should be balanced around the lowest common denominator, which would be the newbie but rather around the highest common denominator.

In other words: The topend of the game should only be doable by the toptier players sporting a toptier build - knowing full well that this is going to lock me and many other players out of some content.
Thats fine by me.

I can handle all content in softcore tradeleague but I cant do it in hardcore, let alone in Gauntlet or something crazy hard shit like that. Im not good enough and thats fine. I accept that and move on.

"

trixxar wrote:

To then have people who have many thousands of hours of play time, and hundreds more every 3 months, say "Oh its easy" is not particularly helpful.

Agreed. Thats what you get if post in general or feedback tho.
Post the same thing in gameplay & help and you will get a much better answer.

Its not necessarily a design issue, if any given player cant do stuff or its not working out for whatever reason. Just ask for help and you shall receive help. The folks over there are usually very active and are doing their best to help out.

There are solutions to most issues. Those solutions require knowledge.
Sharing this knowledge takes time and effort.
You or anyone else for that matter wont get that in general or feedback. Especially not if the thread contains buzzwords, accusations, false statements, hyperbole statements and stuff like that.
Those threads tend to get a "gitgut" answer and thats that.

Head over to gameplay & help instead and you are likely to receive a helpful answer and thus enjoy the game again.

Bottom line:
You dont have to invent the wheel yourself, ask the ones who already know how its done. Not only does that save time but also removes the need to demand changes from GGG.

I dont think the game has to be either balanced around the lowest denominator OR its current state.

There is a healthy middle where its friendly to new gamers but extra effort is rewarded. Easy to learn, hard to master.

The current setup is EXTREMELY hard to learn, then once you know all the systems, moderately hard to master.

At least part of this is what snorkle mentioned, the exponential problem.

Lets say a build has 15 things to maximize dps, that someone like Mathil would know. For simplicity, lets say each adds 50% more dps compared to ignoring it (accuracy, weapon speed, flat damage addition, curse, increased damage, more damage, gem level, penetration, overlapping damage with +aoe, wither or exposure, duration, +base component as additional, onslaught, increased effect of buffs, lower mana res of buffs, etc)

He gets them all correct. He starts at 10,000 dps and after getting all the components (10k * 1.5^15), he is doing 4.38 million.

Lets you are a beginning player. You, with help, get 10 of 15 right (10k*1.5^10). You are 2/3 of the way to what Mathil did, yet you only do 0.57M dps.

He is doing nearly 10 times more than, even though you got 2/3 of the things right?


The example is simplistic but it points to a non-beginner friendly game.

People can and should learn as they play, but why is the game intentionally set up not to be beginner friendly.

No is suggesting making every piece of gear so good and every talent so strong choices dont matter. But we are so far to the other side of the spectrum.

Then, again, people with 10,000 hours in the game want to be challenged so they fight any possible suggestion that maybe the game is not very well balanced.

"

trixxar wrote:

I dont think the game has to be either balanced around the lowest denominator OR its current state.

There is a healthy middle where its friendly to new gamers but extra effort is rewarded. Easy to learn, hard to master.

The current setup is EXTREMELY hard to learn, then once you know all the systems, moderately hard to master.

At least part of this is what snorkle mentioned, the exponential problem.

Lets say a build has 15 things to maximize dps, that someone like Mathil would know. For simplicity, lets say each adds 50% more dps compared to ignoring it (accuracy, weapon speed, flat damage addition, curse, increased damage, more damage, gem level, penetration, overlapping damage with +aoe, wither or exposure, duration, +base component as additional, onslaught, increased effect of buffs, lower mana res of buffs, etc)

He gets them all correct. He starts at 10,000 dps and after getting all the components (10k * 1.5^15), he is doing 4.38 million.

Lets you are a beginning player. You, with help, get 10 of 15 right (10k*1.5^10). You are 2/3 of the way to what Mathil did, yet you only do 0.57M dps.

He is doing nearly 10 times more than, even though you got 2/3 of the things right?


The example is simplistic but it points to a non-beginner friendly game.

People can and should learn as they play, but why is the game intentionally set up not to be beginner friendly.

No is suggesting making every piece of gear so good and every talent so strong choices dont matter. But we are so far to the other side of the spectrum.

Then, again, people with 10,000 hours in the game want to be challenged so they fight any possible suggestion that maybe the game is not very well balanced.

Well, one way they could help alleviate this problem is to introduce more "uber" content. Uber bosses and uber maps designed only for people that already "break" the game with millions of dps on a regular basis.

After introducing more exclusing harder content they can make the game a bit easier to open up more build variety.

They could alternate... make 2 leagues focusing on overall content and the 3rd would always be focused about introducing moer uber content for the top 1%

Or, you know, let the people who just want to play trillions of dps builds complain mindlessly about not having harder content(despite Delve being right there) and don't pay much attention to them.

interesting numbers trixxar. I like the exponential parts cause it means, you can "always" find a meaningful upgrade. but it s true it fucks hard learning players. Learning the game, I always felt you either needed an easier mode OR more content in white and yellows. But barely happened since. So yep, saying people should do their own build, would not recommend, that s borderline trolling to do so. You need to reach t14. Once you there sure, you can learn and have more content cause before t14, no invitations, no conquerors, no guardians, no exarch and no second sanctum boss. And even then , if you fuck up your build, only thing to do is pob. You wont find twice your damage in maps looking at what drops.