Alright, Resolve is not as bad...Update 2

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Clownkrieger wrote:

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SunL4D2 wrote:

It's kinda sad that at this point we expect that League will take weeks to become good. And we don't even see an issue here.

What you mean is it will become proper ARPG mechanic.

Well definitions of "good" and "proper ARPG mechanics" might differ.

I know by now that most poe players hate to be challenged in any way though, so im not surprised anymore by your take *shrug*

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SunL4D2 wrote:

We pray,

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SunL4D2 wrote:

Basically you need to dodge everything, even if your character completely overpowers content you still need to dodge everything.

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SunL4D2 wrote:

Rogue-like never have anything like that.

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DiabloImmoral wrote:

GGG says league mechanics can be 2x as rewarding as mapping and that's ok but they don't really know how to calculate that correctly. Lakes in Kalandra were ~0.5-0.75x as rewarding as mapping and that was after all the buffs. If Sanctum is the same *and* it's obnoxious --> lowest retention league of all time.

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Turtledove wrote:

That's rich when directed against someone with 40/40 challenges.

Here's my explanation. Lab was disliked by many because the trap gauntlets were not ARPG gameplay. ARPG gameplay means what I call kill-monsters-get-loot gameplay.

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crunkatog wrote:

I like lab, but this isn't lab.

Resolve is just another timer, honestly. It's not intended to recover, it's there to reward speedrunners in a "challenge is its own reward" sort of way.

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Clownkrieger wrote:

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SunL4D2 wrote:

It's kinda sad that at this point we expect that League will take weeks to become good. And we don't even see an issue here.

What you mean is it will become proper ARPG mechanic.

Well definitions of "good" and "proper ARPG mechanics" might differ.

I know by now that most poe players hate to be challenged in any way though, so im not surprised anymore by your take *shrug*

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Zrevnur wrote:

More interested as to how much (life) damage those environmental things do. My guess is that Resolve will not be much of a problem for SC/instagib builds.

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SunL4D2 wrote:

We pray,

To The Goddess, Arakaali & Ralakesh.

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SunL4D2 wrote:

Basically you need to dodge everything, even if your character completely overpowers content you still need to dodge everything.

You can build against it. And if you also get your prayers right (see above) it wont do much - you can approximately ignore most traps then. For Dedication this doesnt work so well though.

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SunL4D2 wrote:

Rogue-like never have anything like that.

Actually they do. Like corruption in ADOM or food in many of them.

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DiabloImmoral wrote:

GGG says league mechanics can be 2x as rewarding as mapping and that's ok but they don't really know how to calculate that correctly. Lakes in Kalandra were ~0.5-0.75x as rewarding as mapping and that was after all the buffs. If Sanctum is the same *and* it's obnoxious --> lowest retention league of all time.

My guess is that only the special relics (which work outside) and maybe the boss XP boost will make it worthwhile to run. The lousy rewards shown in the video (unless I missed some?) werent exactly promising either.

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Jadian wrote:

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SunL4D2 wrote:

Problem is death is meaningful part of gameplay in Rogue-likes, you are meant to die over and over again. Having to balance it for HC Leagues serves as huge detriment here.

It's not just about balancing it for HC leagues, it's about balancing it for how recovery works in PoE in general.

Health is a vital resource in rogue-likes, and it is something that holds you back when it is getting low. Even if you have a mechanic that makes you stronger with less health remaining, you still have to play around the fact that having less health means you can make fewer mistakes.

Health in PoE allows too many avenues of recovery for it to fulfill that role. Weaken/remove those avenues of recovery, and you're preventing a lot of builds from even participating in the Sanctum.

Resolve was pitched as functioning like health does in rogue-likes, so you can have your rogue-like "deaths with meaning" without having to rebuild/restructure PoE itself.

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Pashid wrote:

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SunL4D2 wrote:

No, resolve is just unnecessary layer of annoyance. Rogue-like never have anything like that. They are always about RNG, buffs, learning boss mechanics and surviving. Problem is death is meaningful part of gameplay in Rogue-likes, you are meant to die over and over again. Having to balance it for HC Leagues serves as huge detriment here.

It's actually a great thing because people won't be able to simply cheese the entire mode with their boring hyper regen zdps builds like RF and so on early on.
Means a proper balanced build and knowledge about the mode is required to succeed in the long run.

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Clownkrieger wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

That's rich when directed against someone with 40/40 challenges.

Here's my explanation. Lab was disliked by many because the trap gauntlets were not ARPG gameplay. ARPG gameplay means what I call kill-monsters-get-loot gameplay.

Someone got triggered by the mentioning of lab again lol. Dont forget to add this thread to that list of yours! :)

Also what has a trade player sporting 40 challenges to say these days? He probably didnt do half of them himself but bought them lmao (i dont care about these stuff at all btw, i dont go off my ways to collect pixels, golden penisses to sport in my hideout, or think i would be so special that i need to make AMA threads then)

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DiabloImmoral wrote:

The rewards have to be absolutely ridiculously insane or the mechanic has to be easily cheeseable or everyone will quit the league immediately.

There have been no special rewards from the sanctum revealed so far, and the special relics are confirmed not going core so there's no point in farming it unless the return is 1.5x that of mapping or better.

GGG says league mechanics can be 2x as rewarding as mapping and that's ok but they don't really know how to calculate that correctly. Lakes in Kalandra were ~0.5-0.75x as rewarding as mapping and that was after all the buffs. If Sanctum is the same *and* it's obnoxious --> lowest retention league of all time.

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SunL4D2 wrote:

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Jadian wrote:

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SunL4D2 wrote:

Problem is death is meaningful part of gameplay in Rogue-likes, you are meant to die over and over again. Having to balance it for HC Leagues serves as huge detriment here.

It's not just about balancing it for HC leagues, it's about balancing it for how recovery works in PoE in general.

Health is a vital resource in rogue-likes, and it is something that holds you back when it is getting low. Even if you have a mechanic that makes you stronger with less health remaining, you still have to play around the fact that having less health means you can make fewer mistakes.

Health in PoE allows too many avenues of recovery for it to fulfill that role. Weaken/remove those avenues of recovery, and you're preventing a lot of builds from even participating in the Sanctum.

Resolve was pitched as functioning like health does in rogue-likes, so you can have your rogue-like "deaths with meaning" without having to rebuild/restructure PoE itself.

Rogue likes also have life restoration mechanics.

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SunL4D2 wrote:

They are not like Resolve though.

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Xystre wrote:

this is much worse than lab tho.. this "resolve" is a massive bait for people thinking that bullshit isnt gonna happen on any of their runs and gonna lose their runs to stupid rng situations..

I would call this "the lab experiment" than anything else..