Minions were already TRASH before and only good at one thing but now...

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Aynix wrote:

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Gopstop22 wrote:

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Aynix wrote:

I will share a secret with you.
That was the point of the nerf. For minions to not be completly broken on low budget.
I played Skeleton Mages, I spent less than 20 ex on that build and it was more than enough to easily do evertyhing in the game (ubers didnt exist back then, it was in Scourge league).

low budget isnt 20 ex LOL

Nowadays? Thats super low budget. You can get that in one day (~4h of mapping) after you reach "end game". Even quicker if you have character built for speed farming.

Now it makes sense that you were struggling in T16's if 20ex is considered high investment to you.

Last i checked 20ex is still a pretty big budged for an average poe player,

Not everyone can no-life 15hours/day 7 days a week like streamers,

The point of the game should be to make the game decently enjoyable for an average player,

And not spit on him for not being competent enough with a streamer.

The game forces you to tradegame or craft a lot. If you don't like these things and just want to play a hack n slash, 20 Ex is a shitton.

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Aynix wrote:

Well, if he is struggling with this amount of investment its player fault at this point. Pretty sure his build reached more than enough DPS to kill all Ubers (except Exarch, this fight is bs)

You still misread some things.

First, I killed ALL Uber Bosses on this build, including Exarch (and yes, this one is very rough). Some very comfortably.

Second, I struggle, because it is not a good build for this budget (also there are better builds for low budget as well. Many other build would break 100m at this point while having even better defence which would make these fights much easier.

Third, minions are just comfy and decent (just decent, nothing more) on low budget. That's all there is to them. Well, was at least.

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Gopstop22 wrote:

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Aynix wrote:

I will share a secret with you.
That was the point of the nerf. For minions to not be completly broken on low budget.
I played Skeleton Mages, I spent less than 20 ex on that build and it was more than enough to easily do evertyhing in the game (ubers didnt exist back then, it was in Scourge league).

dude 20 ex isnt "low budget" LMAO with 20 ex investment all the meta builds could trash all content with ease

Not really "trash all content with ease", but it will get you far.

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dragomirrr wrote:

So lets asume evryone wants with no investment (time, currency or knowledge) to easily going through endgame? I would like to have a car for a few dollars and also to not invest in them in a next 10 years and would be great if someone else can find it for me :)

Honestly, I would more builds to be able to easily do content such as Guardians or Shaper on barely any gear. Uber Elder, Sirus and Maven are step above that. I guess they should require more investment. And Ubers would need even more.

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Bleu42 wrote:

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SunL4D2 wrote:

But now they are not even good at being decent on low budget and it was the only thing they excelled at.

Yes, I know that Spiders and some other minions still should be alright, maybe some are buffed even, but nerfs to Frenzy and Power charges for minions, Unnatural Strength change and base damage nerfs are just massive for arcetype that already struggled with damage relative to meta builds.

I guess clueless people who for some reason still thought that minions are OP must rejoice now. xD

Also does anyone know minions or monsters that fit well for Ignite? Maybe there is something here...too bad we can't make minions always ignite with all kinds of damage, otherwise unreliable Biiju-dama robot from Heist would be decent pick.

I'm confused. You're saying that minions were "trash" and the only thing they were good at was... not being trash on a low budget? Which is it? Were minions the one skill type that got worse the better the gear you got? Or are we dealing with a quantum skill here that is both "trash" and "excelled with budget gear" at the same time?

They are only decent (just decent) on good budget, the more you invest more you will get out of other builds. I played best minion build out there and at this level of investment I would get 3 times more DPS and more defences out of alternatives.

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Suslikwishmaker wrote:

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Bleu42 wrote:

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SunL4D2 wrote:

But now they are not even good at being decent on low budget and it was the only thing they excelled at.

Yes, I know that Spiders and some other minions still should be alright, maybe some are buffed even, but nerfs to Frenzy and Power charges for minions, Unnatural Strength change and base damage nerfs are just massive for arcetype that already struggled with damage relative to meta builds.

I guess clueless people who for some reason still thought that minions are OP must rejoice now. xD

Also does anyone know minions or monsters that fit well for Ignite? Maybe there is something here...too bad we can't make minions always ignite with all kinds of damage, otherwise unreliable Biiju-dama robot from Heist would be decent pick.

I'm confused. You're saying that minions were "trash" and the only thing they were good at was... not being trash on a low budget? Which is it? Were minions the one skill type that got worse the better the gear you got? Or are we dealing with a quantum skill here that is both "trash" and "excelled with budget gear" at the same time?

That latter, but it really deals more with a bit of miscommunication. Minions was trash in that it wasn't really as competitive as other skills due to the drop off of not being able to get much benefit from gear. However it was very good as a starter due to not needing gear. Allowing you to use it to farm gear for a more viable build. It also made it good for people just starting the game, or those that didn't care much for the true endgame and just wanted to run maps on a budget. It was the last remaining casual friendly budget build.

Well said. People confuse being decent (just decent) on budget with being OP.

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MruczekM77 wrote:

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SunL4D2 wrote:

But now they are not even good at being decent on low budget and it was the only thing they excelled at.

Yes, I know that Spiders and some other minions still should be alright, maybe some are buffed even, but nerfs to Frenzy and Power charges for minions, Unnatural Strength change and base damage nerfs are just massive for arcetype that already struggled with damage relative to meta builds.

I guess clueless people who for some reason still thought that minions are OP must rejoice now. xD

Also does anyone know minions or monsters that fit well for Ignite? Maybe there is something here...too bad we can't make minions always ignite with all kinds of damage, otherwise unreliable Biiju-dama robot from Heist would be decent pick.

Flame golems buff+ Easy 2+ to all from helmet and 2+ from armor coruption

I am reserving my judgement on golems. Did they also used Fleshcrafter? Fleshcrafter is very good for AG now, because you will have to annoint notable to keep it alive now.

Also +2 body corruption is not budget option unless you are using Tabula. ._.

And non-budget minion is big oof - other builds get many times more DPS and more defences from high budget.

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Suslikwishmaker wrote:

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Bleu42 wrote:

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SunL4D2 wrote:

But now they are not even good at being decent on low budget and it was the only thing they excelled at.

Yes, I know that Spiders and some other minions still should be alright, maybe some are buffed even, but nerfs to Frenzy and Power charges for minions, Unnatural Strength change and base damage nerfs are just massive for arcetype that already struggled with damage relative to meta builds.

I guess clueless people who for some reason still thought that minions are OP must rejoice now. xD

Also does anyone know minions or monsters that fit well for Ignite? Maybe there is something here...too bad we can't make minions always ignite with all kinds of damage, otherwise unreliable Biiju-dama robot from Heist would be decent pick.

I'm confused. You're saying that minions were "trash" and the only thing they were good at was... not being trash on a low budget? Which is it? Were minions the one skill type that got worse the better the gear you got? Or are we dealing with a quantum skill here that is both "trash" and "excelled with budget gear" at the same time?

That latter, but it really deals more with a bit of miscommunication. Minions was trash in that it wasn't really as competitive as other skills due to the drop off of not being able to get much benefit from gear. However it was very good as a starter due to not needing gear. Allowing you to use it to farm gear for a more viable build. It also made it good for people just starting the game, or those that didn't care much for the true endgame and just wanted to run maps on a budget. It was the last remaining casual friendly budget build.

Dude, one minion got nerfed, 5 other were buffed. Now those so called "casuals' who dont care about peak content can play more builds, when before they could play Skele Mages and nothing else.

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Delpnaz wrote:

Last i checked 20ex is still a pretty big budged for an average poe player,

Not everyone can no-life 15hours/day 7 days a week like streamers,

The point of the game should be to make the game decently enjoyable for an average player,

And not spit on him for not being competent enough with a streamer.

You dont need to "no-life 15hours/day 7 days a week like streamers,". If you know what you are doing you can easily make 5ex an hour while focusing on pretty much any league you like. (not counting trade time ofc)
I grinded a lot since new Atlas Passive Tree came out and did some testing (and many content creators did as well so you can easily find videos about it)
Even with just regular alch&go that anyone can do you can reliable make 2-2.5ex/h as long you have build with decent clearspeed. But we are talking about 1h of pure mapping, not doing 5 other things at the same time.

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Aynix wrote:

Dude, one minion got nerfed, 5 other were buffed. Now those so called "casuals' who dont care about peak content can play more builds, when before they could play Skele Mages and nothing else.

Except it's not just 1 minion. Nerfs are massive and global. Minions lost +2 from Necro, lost +1 from helmet, charges were giga-nerfed (numbers just for you - minions go from 600% crit chance to 120% and from 45% attack/sast speed to 12%), Gravicius/AG shenanigans, etc. etc. Buffs are not enough ot offset nerfs.

I am honestly tired of correcting you. You show no understanding of nerfs or state of minions. You are not contributing to discussion.

My overall gut feeling is

Nerf for min/maxers, I can't overlook the change to charges the fact minions got mega power/frenzy charges has been a cornerstone of necro scaling and losing this is the biggest nerf I think and I really doubt they put all of it back.

Buff for casuals, I think unspecified builds will have a much easier time getting stats and scaling their minions up, again gut feeling is they put things like the +2 onto gear and the spectre scaling etc so we have gear progression in that manner.

I think fixing the fact that minion dps is entirely gated by a few cheese interactions is a good thing, if you go back to before EE got gutted for example if a player didn't use EE + Frenzies on a minion build they lost half their dps immediately which was fucking stupid tbh.

Animate Guardian is in the same level of dumb tbh, you can get wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too much damage out of a guardian now it feels compulsory to run one if you are any kind of min/maxer and i'd prefer half of that power to be baselined.

As always though proof is in the pudding, if I make a minion build that worked last league and isn't called Skeletons and its shit in the next one i'm gonna be salty and call them out. I'm cautiously optimistic which is as optimistic as you can get with GGG changes.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

My overall gut feeling is

Nerf for min/maxers, I can't overlook the change to charges the fact minions got mega power/frenzy charges has been a cornerstone of necro scaling and losing this is the biggest nerf I think and I really doubt they put all of it back.

Buff for casuals, I think unspecified builds will have a much easier time getting stats and scaling their minions up, again gut feeling is they put things like the +2 onto gear and the spectre scaling etc so we have gear progression in that manner.

I think fixing the fact that minion dps is entirely gated by a few cheese interactions is a good thing, if you go back to before EE got gutted for example if a player didn't use EE + Frenzies on a minion build they lost half their dps immediately which was fucking stupid tbh.

Animate Guardian is in the same level of dumb tbh, you can get wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too much damage out of a guardian now it feels compulsory to run one if you are any kind of min/maxer and i'd prefer half of that power to be baselined.

As always though proof is in the pudding, if I make a minion build that worked last league and isn't called Skeletons and its shit in the next one i'm gonna be salty and call them out. I'm cautiously optimistic which is as optimistic as you can get with GGG changes.

Charges are baseline part of minion builds. It's like using mark or curse. Basically everyone was using them / you was trolling if you not using them.

You are talking about casuals here, but mention gear? Huh? Casuals are not getting any power from gear basically. You described min-maxers while supposedly talking about casuals and vice versa.

Bone Rings will be high-end item. Generally minion gear I doubt it will be enough to compensate. Also many minion builds need Unset rings, there is strong competition here.

Also no way they put +global minion levels on rings. O_o

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SunL4D2 wrote:

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Aynix wrote:

Dude, one minion got nerfed, 5 other were buffed. Now those so called "casuals' who dont care about peak content can play more builds, when before they could play Skele Mages and nothing else.

Except it's not just 1 minion. Nerfs are massive and global. Minions lost +2 from Necro, lost +1 from helmet, charges were giga-nerfed (numbers just for you - minions go from 600% crit chance to 120% and from 45% attack/sast speed to 12%), Gravicius/AG shenanigans, etc. etc. Buffs are not enough ot offset nerfs.

I am honestly tired of correcting you. You show no understanding of nerfs or state of minions. You are not contributing to discussion.

Nope. Golems, SRS, Absolution, Phantams, Holy Relic. All those minions got buffed. Especially to "casuals" that never used +3 helmet because good +3 helmets were costing more than 20 ex. You also would not use Necro for Golems/Abosultion/Holy Relic so that +2 nerf is meaningless here as well.

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SunL4D2 wrote:

Charges are baseline part of minion builds. It's like using mark or curse. Basically everyone was using them / you was trolling if you not using them.

These things change don't assume competence on behalf of players, frenzy monkeys were a thing before anybody wrote a guide on them and like nobody played support spectres at the time.

They are baseline to us because our level of expertise is one where any traditional scaling mechanic is known and accounted for.

This is why. If I tell a few of my friends that play SC to play summoner they will use essences and fossils to attempt to craft some gear, if the gear looks new or minion orientated doubly so. At no point will it occur to them that spectres can be used as support they won't even think about it.

It gets hard to put yourself back into the inexperienced box once you are experienced but it really is a thing. I used carnage chieftains for frenzies years before it became considered "mandatory" and you could see the build guides shift over time to their inclusion.

To make this point another way go ask some of the very large necro population what other support spectres there are, loads of them won't be able to give you an answer because they genuinely don't know I can list like 10 good ones off the top of my head. Baseline experience won't be where you think it is trust me most players follow guides only and guides will fix their lack of experience within a couple of weeks like they always do.