TFT unethical business

I get your point Kuciol but its kinda glossing over some key details, primarily that the game wouldn't be worse if they improved diversity overall.

You can clear SC on much less currency than people think, with skills they don't think work because most players that speak about these things actually don't have any first hand experience of making builds or playing those skills.

However galvanic arrow not being shit does not impact on this. Could i clear all the content with galvanic arrow? Yes, is it shit? Yes, should they buff it? Yes.

The fact very practiced individuals can clear the content with everything isn't a point you should bring up as "then everythings OK", if Mathil couldn't clear the content then balance would be among the worst seen. If anything it should be pretty easy if your content is aimed at "good but not great" players which I think is roughly where they aim.

There is too much hyperbole that goes on about these topics with second hand knowledge. To simplify it though if you assigned scalars to builds based on how much better they perform than the median skill you would get numbers ranging from like 0.5 to 5. That is just too wide, the game wouldn't be worse if it was 0.7 to 3 for example regardless of how much content professionals can clear.

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trixxar wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

I think you wholly missed the point. Kuciol is saying that anyone can play basketball, but not everyone gets into the NBA and that translates to POE as follows: everyone can play POE, but not everyone can beat all end game content.

The only hyperbole here is the comparison of getting into the NBA to POE end game content. Getting into the NBA is dramatically harder than POE end game content.

With time and dedication, I would say most people could beat POE end game content. I just don't think everyone puts the time in to do it, which is perfectly fine. The part that crosses the line is expecting any level of participation to somehow beat end game.

The only real question here is where is the line? Although I suppose it isn't a hard set line that needs crossed. It's more like a progressive scale of things you can beat up to and including the uber bosses.

Nubatron, honest question no malice, you think it is not hyperbole to say that because Mathil uses various builds, that PoE allows average players to complete content using almost any skill?

Because that sounds pretty insane to me.

I don't think it is ridiculous to compare Mathil to a relatively successful sports celebrity. He is in the top 100 on twitch overall if I recall with annual earnings around $250k pre-tax, and then much higher if you limit it to gamers, then even higher if you limit it to players who primarily play PoE.

It certainly feels like hyperbole to use him as an example of the average poe experience.



No one has called for removing PoE (as kuciol said), or removing all content not conquerable by all players (again as kuciol said), or even that PoE needs to change.

What we are talking about is recognizing that PoE endgame is very limited by percent of players that conquer it, that PoE players do not use a relatively diverse set of skills to conquer it (even ignoring the players who do not succeed).

What part of that do you actually disagree with?

I think I already responded to your question earlier in the thread.

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Nubatron wrote:

Admittedly, I don't watch a lot of streamers, but there have been Mathil builds that used common uniques in the past and only caused a price increase of those items because he is so popular. It's kind of a curse to create a cheap build while being popular because you'll cause demand to skyrocket, and the associated prices.

I think Mathil is a bad example, but not for the reasons you cited. He's a bad example because he is signicantly better than most players in terms of skill level. So he can take garbage and make it look good where most of us can't.

Mathil is a bad example. He could probably somehow beat end game with Conversion Trap. That certainly doesn't make Conversion Trap a good, well balanced skill.

I think end game should be reachable only with time, equipment and/or skill. Where that line is certainly can be debated, but someone who puts in minimal effort relative to others should manage their expectations for what they can achieve.

The skills used to beat end game are probably more diverse than people realize. I've used a relatively dead skill for several leagues now as an example (Volatile Dead). I assure you that it's just fine.

People just look at the poe.ninja data and assume that represents the whole game. Or they look at streamers and think they represent the macro. There are skills that outperform other skills and as a result get much higher usage because most people will choose the path of least resistance. That part is absolutely true. The part that misses the mark is assuming that less utilized skills can't also beat end game. Most skills can; they just are not as fluid or efficient as the best skills. GGG should absolutely examine that problem, though I fear some of the issue is mechanical. Strike skills suck with the current pace of the game as an example.

As a small side note, Mathil has often made remarks regarding to poor balance.

Some bit ago he called it a 'clown fiesta' and fairly recently did a BV build that required him to be close to bosses that caused an unavoidable death. He did complete the fight but not without some negative remarks regarding the 'melee' range.

So if Mathil's play is used as an example to argument that there is higher diversity in viability than many would state, his comments should be taken as well.

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And, well, as far as aspirational content goes, surely there is a large range of difference of investment required over builds. As well as skill. And willingness and diligence.

I don't think this is something GGG wants to fix, something about it is working for them.


:p

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Draegnarrr wrote:

I get your point Kuciol but its kinda glossing over some key details, primarily that the game wouldn't be worse if they improved diversity overall.

You can clear SC on much less currency than people think, with skills they don't think work because most players that speak about these things actually don't have any first hand experience of making builds or playing those skills.

However galvanic arrow not being shit does not impact on this. Could i clear all the content with galvanic arrow? Yes, is it shit? Yes, should they buff it? Yes.

The fact very practiced individuals can clear the content with everything isn't a point you should bring up as "then everythings OK", if Mathil couldn't clear the content then balance would be among the worst seen. If anything it should be pretty easy if your content is aimed at "good but not great" players which I think is roughly where they aim.

There is too much hyperbole that goes on about these topics with second hand knowledge. To simplify it though if you assigned scalars to builds based on how much better they perform than the median skill you would get numbers ranging from like 0.5 to 5. That is just too wide, the game wouldn't be worse if it was 0.7 to 3 for example regardless of how much content professionals can clear.

Ive never said that the game is perfect or that im against any improvments. What im against however is making it easier to get to the highest tier of content. Uber bosses should remain unreachable goal for avg Joe.

Make it easier to get to red maps, make it easier to gear up against shaper and breachlords or any non uber Boss. Ive no problems with that. But im also ok with never reaching 3000 dept or beating mavened uber elder. Thats how it should be.

The problem with that statement is uber bosses already aren't a skill differentiator, like I agree with you i'm also someone who doesn't mind if some content is beyond me. However the current strategies to deal with bosses in many cases don't require skill they just have players picking X and overpowering it with mathematics.

With that in mind are you actually gating who you intend to? Should I be able to kill Minotaur with 1 firetrap while my friend in similar gear takes 5 minutes with galvanic arrow and has to play decently the entire time?

The only way the game gets easier is if they buff the things people already play, not if they buff the ones they don't. I think content progression is extremely important in games driven by aspirational content and mechanical depth however PoE's isn't where people think it is.

If I give you a stacked RF Inq you can play like an absolute putz and still kill content, I could give you a double strike character where you'd need to be very mechanically skilled to achieve anything like the same results.

I'm sorry but i think that's wrong, they will never get it perfect but they could work to make it better - this is why I was so frustrated that they touted "no balance changes this league guys" as if it was a selling point. More than anything I don't want to ruin said RF guys fun, I just want players who enjoy worse skills to have fun too.

Kuciol your characters are barely above 90, you re bad at the game or what ? You talk a lot i was expecting at least multiple lvl 100 chars, you know with all the knowledge and skill you have and the way you ask for a challenge. Where is your grind ? Where the hell is your hard grinding that you supposedly wants so bad, you dont put a lot of work my friend.

At least you re an expert on strawmaning arguments ;) You know the classic people demand everything on a plate like it s what s people are talking about. At least you showed them with all your lvl 90 chars. That s a lot of knowledge and grind. Inspirational player.

Or we could talk abou the fact that in yellow maps, once you ve killed couple maven invitation, killed eater once and the other dude once, you suddenly only can witness t12+ for all of them, instantly locking out of this content for the rest of the league not only for the char you re playing for but for all other chars, when you reroll you cant even kill them even once again, nice design !!!! And that s if you happen to grind in white and yellows. Maybe, you know, just maybe that s why people "demand" access to red maps, to have content ? Incredible right. People play a game and "demand" at least some of the content. Crazy, i know.
At least now you can finally focus on certain league mechanics and feel the content in white and yellows, but before you couldnt even do that since you were probably starved for currency and couldnt afford scarabs to somewhat spam a league mechanic. So it s getting better. And maybe that s also a reason why people tried their best to go straight into t14 where suddenly all is unlocked for ne real reason btw. Why suddenly you had 10 times the content in there just because you used some meta skills or whatever. Conquerors, shaper guardians, elder guardians, maven, exarch, eater of world, more currencies so at least shots at crafting, item bases, etc etc etc.
Btw for me it was crazy they didnt put conquerors and sirus in yellows or even whites without the good drops ofc, like awakaned gem. No, again, t14+. Like, you have a new end game, you have uber end game, and you re scared of what exactly ? giving some of the cool bosses in white and yellows, you think that after killing sirus 10 times people are suddenly stop playing and stop try reaching red maps and exarch end game ? I dont believe it 1 second.

That s more where the discussion is, not so called entitled people that want it all. And again, now that we can focus on certain leagues with the atlas passives, add a couple memorable conq fights or sth in yellow and white maps and we re good, so my critique is more towards forumers than ggg.

Btw some of the forum trolls would be amazed if they just LISTENED to some of the streamers. They would hear them call certain gem and related ascendencies trash , unusable, garbage, bad, baits, making fun of people using certain of those builds in races.

As for mathil, when some of the builds are failing hard BUT he likes them, what does he do, you know, very surprisingly, he throws lots and lots of exalts at them, stop saying this guy makes everything works. And before he makes a build he thinks quite a lot with pob and with all the knowledge about the game multipliers of the game offense and defense that he has. He is not making any random stuff.

this season builds and his own words, check youtube
whispering ice -> all ubers flawlessly
bow coc dd/vd -> most unhetical build
glutonous tide -> meme build with 1 alch bow, trying to make it work, not very good, so not an argument
shock nova crackling lance -> cruses end game
frenzy wander -> all uber bosses
melee ele hit -> sadly very melee. ooh ? and it was accuracy stacking, you know the obvious new player choice. grace and determination ofc.
ice spear trickster -> took on everything pretty happily
blade trap -> a bit meh
wave of conviction arc for clear -> holds up to end game
chieftain str stacker -> does ok in endgame and uncomfortable, but again str stacker, wich is a thing no doubt. at least, not grace and determination.
forbidden rite -> we know this can scale to infinity even if he doesnt push at max
storm rain -> all bosses
and champion perforate -> open youtube and listen to what he is saying about melee. he does endgame but he is not crusiing flawlessly

so if we really wants to look at this, sure it s true that there is build diversity BUT there is a pattern about melee that s there, and people complaining about melee are not DEMANDING or ENTITLED or BAD. If we were to use the mathil argument, they are RIGHT. And on the 3 melee chars he is using, 2 are stat stackers !! Sure stat stackers are legit but come on ! and I didnt even went to check the price of the stat stacker builds, my understanding it s stat stacker are expensive but maybe i am wrong. So it would boil down to champ determination and grace.

btw i didnt even talked about league starter, so not playing the build you want, finishing the game with it except ubers and then rerolling the build you want. What do you think is gonna happen with this design ? Obviously, since they already cleared the game with the league starter and since the currency they acquired with their first league starter will probably trivialise the basic end game, that they already did, for the next build, they probably will only focused on doing ubers, and probably complain when ubers are only built around meta builds ;). Anyway, ggg is busy with poe 2 so, not asking anything huge, just suggesting couple adjustments if they can do it and if they find those ideas not completely retarded.

Re-read the whole conversation. Thats all i will say.

How did this thread go from discussing TFT to a discussion about balance. Thread seems pretty derailed imho.

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Suslikwishmaker wrote:

How did this thread go from discussing TFT to a discussion about balance. Thread seems pretty derailed imho.

Fair question.

If balance was not at stake then TFT would not matter. For instance, if your character was as powerful with or without TFT, then no one would be annoyed by it. That would make TFT completely voluntary.

TFT causes problems because it increases power vs time a lot, thereby 'forcing' you to use it if you want to be competitive.

(Force in quotes because its more a matter of time spent than it is impossible to progress without it, but the time difference is significant.)

Second problem - the endgame designers have to account for the power of items made possible by TFT, for example combining hundreds of players worth of harvest crafts. They then 'have' to nerf harvest because of a tiny group of players breaking the intended function - which clearly did not include being able to easily trade crafts or they would have made it a tradeable craft item.

Harvest, an important part of the balance equation, was directly nerfed due to TFT (per Chris).

Anything that has that level of power influence, but is handled by some third party with no responsibility to anyone at GGG is problematic.


That is why TFT and balance are related questions.