PoE punishes player curiosity

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UnderOmerta wrote:

Because just about any build is 'viable' if you are allowed to endlessly zerg monsters until they die.

Lol. I don't zerg. Believe it or not, its impossible to zerg and level even in SC.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

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UnderOmerta wrote:

Because just about any build is 'viable' if you are allowed to endlessly zerg monsters until they die.

Lol. I don't zerg. Believe it or not, its impossible to zerg and level even in SC.

Maybe. Or you just have to be very selective on who you zerg. :P

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Amicu wrote:

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SL4Y3R wrote:

Lower your standards.

Not only can you beat this game in pretty "crappy" gear, you can run maps as well.

Mind expanding with specific examples? I don't find your retort very enlightening.

Dude, it's SL4Y3R, he's a troll. Don't feed him. He comes in, makes flippant answers as if he's the greatest PoE player of all time, and then razzes you for posting your opinion.

He's the worst type of poster. He's not a betatester, he's just a fanboy who gets upset when someone doesn't think like he does.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

From "Rules of the Game," an article by Mark Rosewater, the head designer of Magic: the Gathering, 22 Dec 2003

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Myth #1 - Rules Are Obstacles To Creativity

This is probably the biggest myth that causes people to lash out against the rules. The problem is that this myth is based upon a false assumption. People like to believe that a world of infinite choices is more conducive to creativity than a world of finite choices. Essentially, the more choices available, the more chance for creative thought.

Unfortunately, scientific exploration into the means of creative thought has proven this not to be true. Testing has shown that restrictions actually aid creative thought. How is this possible? The answer rests in the human mind. It turns out that the mind isn’t good at completely open-ended choices. When faced with total freedom of options the brain retreats to known pathways. It simply repeats what worked last time it was in this situation.

Let’s take an example. Suppose I locked a talented writer in a room. Once a week, I force him to write a short story. On the odd weeks, I let him write whatever he wants. On the even weeks, I give him a topic he has to write about. Will he be more creative on the odd or the even weeks? Research shows that the even weeks far outstrip the odd weeks.

Why? Because the even weeks force the writer’s mind to new areas of thought. Perhaps the writer would never think to write a story about a trapeze artist, but tell him he has to write about the circus and the writer heads down pathways he’s never tapped. In fact, experienced writers understand this phenomenon and thus build restrictions for themselves.

I can't say it any better than that.

How do these same rules apply to a game like PoE? I can count with my fingers the number of viable builds that are proven to work in this game and are well known. The equivalent to that, in respect to the writer's example, is like giving 100,000 writers 5 prompts to write from, but with the stipulation that they all must contain the same characters, areas, pages, theme and tone. I just don't see how it can be applied to the topic of build variety in PoE.

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CarebearKiller wrote:

That is indeed well said.

Spoiler

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

From "Rules of the Game," an article by Mark Rosewater, the head designer of Magic: the Gathering, 22 Dec 2003

"

Myth #1 - Rules Are Obstacles To Creativity

This is probably the biggest myth that causes people to lash out against the rules. The problem is that this myth is based upon a false assumption. People like to believe that a world of infinite choices is more conducive to creativity than a world of finite choices. Essentially, the more choices available, the more chance for creative thought.

Unfortunately, scientific exploration into the means of creative thought has proven this not to be true. Testing has shown that restrictions actually aid creative thought. How is this possible? The answer rests in the human mind. It turns out that the mind isn’t good at completely open-ended choices. When faced with total freedom of options the brain retreats to known pathways. It simply repeats what worked last time it was in this situation.

Let’s take an example. Suppose I locked a talented writer in a room. Once a week, I force him to write a short story. On the odd weeks, I let him write whatever he wants. On the even weeks, I give him a topic he has to write about. Will he be more creative on the odd or the even weeks? Research shows that the even weeks far outstrip the odd weeks.

Why? Because the even weeks force the writer’s mind to new areas of thought. Perhaps the writer would never think to write a story about a trapeze artist, but tell him he has to write about the circus and the writer heads down pathways he’s never tapped. In fact, experienced writers understand this phenomenon and thus build restrictions for themselves.

I can't say it any better than that.

I agree with that post: rules are not inherent obstacles to creativity—they can, in fact produce it—however, there can be implicit designs and consequences because of certain rules which can inhibit creativity or even punish the pursuit. Are you familiar with operant conditioning and positive/negative reinforcement? Learned helplessness? A game whose “rules” give the player a “shock” every time they wander outside of the safe boundary of, in this case, life nodes and broken builds does not help creativity.

Having a giant RNG wall to beat against is actually, in my opinion, more or less that “lawlessnes” that very man addresses. The only rule is chance. How is that a rule? How is PoE's economy structured in such a way that it exhibits conditions that are challenging and rewarding? RNG is not challenging, it's frustrating. RNG isn't a rule you can use wits and determination to triumph over. It's unstructured – there is no prompt to go off of, no recipe. You just keep pulling that lever and pray you don't run out of coins first.

If this were a paid-to-play game, the conditions of path of exile would be laughed into nonexistence; who would pay to be punished for learning how to play the game? Just because this game is f2p doesn't mean it shouldn't aim for the same quality standard of a paid. In fact, it should strive to be even better—to show the world that there are alternative ways of doing business (Take Riot Games for example).

This game doesn't really force anyone into being innovative. It forces you to be cautious, choose health, and pray for currency, pray for luck on drops, pray for luck in crafting. If this game would bother to give itself some rules to go by – say, 1 token per map boss kill (and these can be turned in for gear after x amount) – then the RNG wouldn't be as unforgiving, because no matter what, if I keep moving along, I will eventually get guaranteed improvements, even if it is just the slow-n-sure way. But they won't implement something like that. Why? Because farmers.

You know, there's an easy solution to market poisoning, too: make certain items “soulbound” or “account bound.” Not everything, but items that can be farmed and exploited, certain types of high-end orbs, etc.

Amicu, I just listed more than 5 skills one page back, let alone builds.

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Amicu wrote:

How do these same rules apply to a game like PoE? I can count with my fingers the number of viable builds that are proven to work in this game and are well known.

You mean the number of cookie-cutter builds? Saying that picking out a cookie cutter build is an expression of curiosity is like saying a mass-marketed designer shirt is an expression of one's unique personality.

The measure of a game's acceptance of curiosity/creativity is how it treats people who go rogue, reject the cookie-cutter, and design their own builds. Sometimes these builds work, sometimes they don't, but they're rarely well-known.

The main difference here isn't a difference in true diversity; it's that players now hold a higher standard for successful builds. For example, Necromancer builds from Diablo 2, circa 2003. You've got everything in there from melee necros to a Dim Vision-centric build... however, by modern standards, the only build on that entire page that's any good is the PvP Bonemancer, and perhaps not even that (you might argue there are no viable Necromancer builds). If this was 2003, a Marauder Leap Slam build would be considered totally playable.

In other words, that "stipulation on sameness" is not on the part of the system; it's on the part of the audience. Today we demand builds that turn an entire screen of monsters into shiny new loot in 2 seconds or less, and then we wonder where the build diversity has gone. Considering the standards we set, PoE actually has a fair number of options.

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ofclouds wrote:

Spoiler

I agree with that post: rules are not inherent obstacles to creativity—they can, in fact produce it—however, there can be implicit designs and consequences because of certain rules which can inhibit creativity or even punish the pursuit. Are you familiar with operant conditioning and positive/negative reinforcement? Learned helplessness? A game whose “rules” give the player a “shock” every time they wander outside of the safe boundary of, in this case, life nodes and broken builds does not help creativity.

Having a giant RNG wall to beat against is actually, in my opinion, more or less that “lawlessnes” that very man addresses. The only rule is chance. How is that a rule? How is PoE's economy structured in such a way that it exhibits conditions that are challenging and rewarding? RNG is not challenging, it's frustrating. RNG isn't a rule you can use wits and determination to triumph over. It's unstructured – there is no prompt to go off of, no recipe. You just keep pulling that lever and pray you don't run out of coins first.

If this were a paid-to-play game, the conditions of path of exile would be laughed into nonexistence; who would pay to be punished for learning how to play the game? Just because this game is f2p doesn't mean it shouldn't aim for the same quality standard of a paid. In fact, it should strive to be even better—to show the world that there are alternative ways of doing business (Take Riot Games for example).

This game doesn't really force anyone into being innovative. It forces you to be cautious, choose health, and pray for currency, pray for luck on drops, pray for luck in crafting. If this game would bother to give itself some rules to go by – say, 1 token per map boss kill (and these can be turned in for gear after x amount) – then the RNG wouldn't be as unforgiving, because no matter what, if I keep moving along, I will eventually get guaranteed improvements, even if it is just the slow-n-sure way. But they won't implement something like that. Why? Because farmers.

You know, there's an easy solution to market poisoning, too: make certain items “soulbound” or “account bound.” Not everything, but items that can be farmed and exploited, certain types of high-end orbs, etc.

This is a much better reply.

I actually agree with you about the life node thing being too strong of a rule. That's why I have that suggestion link in my signature. I don't feel there's a true lack of build diversity in Path of Exile, but I do feel there's a lack of different build cores -- pretty much you stack life or you stack ES and the other nodes on the tree get precious little attention.

RNG is indeed not a rule. However, where you decide to stop spinning Ye Old Roulette Wheel can be an expression of your build. I don't think RNG should be lessened -- if anything, they should make even more affixes for even more possibilities and even less of a chance of rolling perfect -- but I do think more care should go into balancing affixes. I think we're beyond things like trolling players with thorns.

However, PoE does force you to be innovative (or at least to copy others who are). If you think about it, the endgame, where you have your perfect gear and your 6L and everything's maxed out... you've done the maths in your spreadsheets, you figured out how to maximize DPS, here it is, mission accomplished... there's almost nothing creative about that. It was all calculation. The really creative part of the game is the journey from level 1 to ideal gear, where you're evaluating items on the spot, determining whether its good enough or needs to be rerolled, and deciding which gems to cut because you can't fit them all in your 4L. That is where the creativity of a PoE player, and his experience with the game's mechanics, actually shine through. It might technically still be a calculation, but it's so advanced with so many more variables that it's orders of magnitude more interesting. (I blame the increased restrictions.)

This is why the maps system is a pretty ingenious design, although I'll admit it falls far short of its potential. As consumables, you'll never max out on maps, yet these same evaluation techniques are used to determine what maps to run, when to reroll them, etc. If maps had a more robust, balanced affix system that was a challenge to min/max (as opposed to "has maze? ok time to regal"), there would be a lot less complaints about applying one's intellect to the endgame.

Some sorting (don't mind the formatting):

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SL4Y3R wrote:

Melee:
- Cleave
- Ground Slam
- Flicker
- Cyclone

"Melee"/Midrange:
- Lightning Strike
- FP
- EK

Ranged:
- Burning Arrow
- Exploding Arrow
- Ice Shot
- Lightning Arrow
- Poison Arrow
- Power Siphon
- Split Arrow
- Elemental Hit

Not even on the same screen:
- Spark
- Summoner

All of these are viable endgame, and I'm sure there's more.

I would add a few. (Also you missed LA >_>)

In Melee, Dominating Blow builds (now that Melee Splash exists).
In Midranged, Incinerate (on a str-caster); Fire trap (burn spec);
In Ranged, Frenzy archer; Rain of Arrows; Fireball.

Past that, there are a bunch of complicated builds that might work with the right gear (Flame Totem and Discharge are right on the cusp), quality gems (freeze on hit builds), and so on. But that's already a list of 23 endgame viable main skills.

---

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

The really creative part of the game is the journey from level 1 to ideal gear, where you're evaluating items on the spot, determining whether its good enough or needs to be rerolled, and deciding which gems to cut because you can't fit them all in your 4L. That is where the creativity of a PoE player, and his experience with the game's mechanics, actually shine through.

Can't say it better myself. :)

Great post scrotie. You definitely make some good points.

Wish I had something meaningful to add, but I felt a pat on the back was in order.

I don't see how you can put cyclone in that list, considering how ridiculously gear dependant is

Also, that just list covers around 5-10% of the possible number of builds in the game, in other words its proving the OP's point, not disproving it.

If PoE did reward "curiosity", the number of viable builds would fill the screen. If I wanted a game where builds are defined by selective active skills (rather than the combination of the active skills with support gems and other active skills), I should may as well play TL2, which does everything better than PoE apart from the skilldrasill (which isn't as good as it turns out to be)