PoE punishes player curiosity

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deteego wrote:

I don't see how you can put cyclone in that list, considering how ridiculously gear dependant is

Also, that just list covers around 5-10% of the possible number of builds in the game, in other words its proving the OP's point, not disproving it.

If PoE did reward "curiosity", the number of viable builds would fill the screen. If I wanted a game where builds are defined by selective active skills (rather than the combination of the active skills with support gems and other active skills), I should may as well play TL2, which does everything better than PoE apart from the skilldrasill (which isn't as good as it turns out to be)

That's 23 skills. There's not 230 active skills in the game.

Btw, a skill =/= build

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SL4Y3R wrote:

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deteego wrote:

I don't see how you can put cyclone in that list, considering how ridiculously gear dependant is

Also, that just list covers around 5-10% of the possible number of builds in the game, in other words its proving the OP's point, not disproving it.

If PoE did reward "curiosity", the number of viable builds would fill the screen. If I wanted a game where builds are defined by selective active skills (rather than the combination of the active skills with support gems and other active skills), I should may as well play TL2, which does everything better than PoE apart from the skilldrasill (which isn't as good as it turns out to be)

That's 23 skills. There's not 230 active skills in the game.

Btw, a skill =/= build

Which is the point I made

You should not be listing skills, you should be listing builds. We all know that the active skills you mentioned have a group of support gems that are "set in stone" for those actives. With LA its your GMP/LMP/Elemental weapon damage etc etc, with FP its faster projectiles/MP/GMP/Cold penetration etc etc

So my point still stands, this is the exact opposite of rewarding creative builds and it shows that the clear minority of builds (out of all of the possible builds in the game) are the only ones that are viable

Also I do take what people say regarding progression with a grain of salt when they happend to get dropped an item that is worth a minimum of 5ex that early in the game. Getting a single character with such a uber item in this game is such a massive boost because of the ridiculous currency that such a character will give you to pool your other characters if needed

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pneuma wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

The really creative part of the game is the journey from level 1 to ideal gear, where you're evaluating items on the spot, determining whether its good enough or needs to be rerolled, and deciding which gems to cut because you can't fit them all in your 4L. That is where the creativity of a PoE player, and his experience with the game's mechanics, actually shine through.

Can't say it better myself. :)

Now that I think about it, I think this is precisely the part of the game against which most of the complainers are rebelling.

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deteego wrote:

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SL4Y3R wrote:

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deteego wrote:

I don't see how you can put cyclone in that list, considering how ridiculously gear dependant is

Also, that just list covers around 5-10% of the possible number of builds in the game, in other words its proving the OP's point, not disproving it.

If PoE did reward "curiosity", the number of viable builds would fill the screen. If I wanted a game where builds are defined by selective active skills (rather than the combination of the active skills with support gems and other active skills), I should may as well play TL2, which does everything better than PoE apart from the skilldrasill (which isn't as good as it turns out to be)

That's 23 skills. There's not 230 active skills in the game.

Btw, a skill =/= build

Which is the point I made

You should not be listing skills, you should be listing builds. We all know that the active skills you mentioned have a group of support gems that are "set in stone" for those actives. With LA its your GMP/LMP/Elemental weapon damage etc etc, with FP its faster projectiles/MP/GMP/Cold penetration etc etc

So my point still stands, this is the exact opposite of rewarding creative builds and it shows that the clear minority of builds (out of all of the possible builds in the game) are the only ones that are viable

Also I do take what people say regarding progression with a grain of salt when they happend to get dropped an item that is worth a minimum of 5ex that early in the game. Getting a single character with uber key in this game is such a massive boost because of the ridiculous currency that such a character will give you to pool your other characters if needed

I wish I could find the quote from Chris saying that OPTIMAL choices are actually 5-10% in terms of support. There's nothing wrong with that though. Try something different if you wish.

Build diversity comes in the form of gear, skill tree, and gems. Not just skill and supports.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

I wish I could find the quote from Chris saying that OPTIMAL choices are actually 5-10% in terms of support. There's nothing wrong with that though. Try something different if you wish.

I don't believe that Chris ever put a figure to that statement

And if by optimal you mean actually being able to progress in the game, then sure....

I am not talking about doing end game maps like temple, a lot of builds have difficulty progressing just through merciless

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SL4Y3R wrote:

Build diversity comes in the form of gear, skill tree, and gems. Not just skill and supports.

Yes and?

This isn't countering my point, nor is it helping yours

He did in fact make that statement,

And yes, it is helping my point. Let's take CI and FP as an example. There are some who wear neither DF or eye of chayula. Some wear one, others wear both. That's 3 builds using FP. Not including supports, if they value crit, low life, or anything of that nature.

There are a LOT more builds than you seem to believe.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

He did in fact make that statement

Link please, and by optimal, Chris I believe was talking about end game maps, as I said earlier, this is before that

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SL4Y3R wrote:

And yes, it is helping my point. Let's take CI and FP as an example. There are some who wear neither DF or eye of chayula. Some wear one, others wear both. That's 3 builds using FP. Not including supports, if they value crit, low life, or anything of that nature.

There are a LOT more builds than you seem to believe.

Yes there are a lot more builds

A lot of them aren't able to progress into maps without ridiculous gear, which is the point

And taking builds out of thin air isn't helping your point, do you know the number of possible builds this game has?

Like I said, when it comes to the number of builds/number of possible builds, this game is no better than ones like TL or TQ or D2. In fact at this point, I would argue that D2 had way more viable and unique playstyles (due to builds) than PoE, and this is something that is progressively getting worse, not better

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

SL4Y3R vs Deteego

Spoiler

Spoiler

I owe Jim_Fear $0.02 in royalties.

Shotgun raiden

Look, in order not to be arguing in a complete vacuum, the first thing we need to do is define "optimal"

When I am talking about optimal, I am talking about doing end end game maps (stuff that is level 70+ maps and things like temple). I am completely happy with having a very minor number of characters being able to progress at this point, as its pretty much impossible to balance a game at this point

However, there are such a massive number of builds that have issues as early as act 3 cruel. This is quite far from endgame. This has also gotten much worse in OB, in CB there were so many more builds that could reach endgame maps. Yes there was some broken shit, but at least a lot of builds worked up until that point (if we define the later level maps as "endgame")

To put things into perspective, I rolled a melee molten shell/discharge based character. I basically can't progress without having the optimal mods rolls for gear at the point of the game (now in Act 1 merciless)

Why?

Because any build that is based off tanking (the point of this build is to outtank with molten shell and provide consistant DPS with discharge) isn't really viable. Even with the highest amount of possible armor for that level (700 armor shield, 600 armor chest, inner buff with molten shield, 55% block chance of shield with 35% on spells along with granites, this is ontop of 5 endurance charges, which will soon by 7 with Oak+passive skill tree point, with 4 pieces of gear having 70+ life and almost capped resists in merciless). I am still actually dying to things that should be the least of my concern, stuff with increased damage/critical strikes etc etc (since i have devoted so much to armor and block)

Guess what? The above stuff was possible to do in CB all the way until end game maps, and I definitely did not need the best gear for the level bracket. To put things into perspective, the damage is so ridiculous now that my molten shield breaks in split second. Its not so much of a shield as a constant casting exploding aoe skill now, It demonstrates the ridiculous levels that GGG buffed damage for no apparent reason at all

This is what is referred to as "creative" builds

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deteego wrote:

Shotgun raiden

Look at your avatar! You're Mileena.

SL4Y3R is clearly Shang Tsung, so he can be whatever he wants.