Convince me Stash tab "MTX" is not pay to win

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Mikrotherion wrote:

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allionus wrote:

just get it, please.

WTH does "I for one agree with Shags that he spoke for us.
We (a group consisting of at least me and shags) don't need another thread about this" even mean???

Just applying your black/white, nitpicky way of arguing that PoE is P2W to your reply to Shagsbeard:

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allionus wrote:

Also, don't use "we". Just use "I", as you're not speaking for anyone else but yourself.

But he did. Which I wanted to point out. He spoke for at lest himself and me, which already constitutes a "we", and, I believe, many other people who already discussed this topic - more than once.

He didn't mention you. And now you speak for him. Okie dokie

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j33bus wrote:

Pay for advantage is 100% pay to win. Stash tabs are that, and it would be fine except that the game advertises itself as never pay to win. It's not that they did it, it's that they lied about it.

An ancient philosopher once said it best -"That's not fraud, uh it's... False advertising"



"We are the real deal, we are the original hardboiled arpg veterans who love the community, and we work so hard year after year- just for the community and all the long time arpg classics' fans. P2W? WE ARE ABOVE THAT!!!! All you need is a hard sack and a spine on your back"


Yep i remember back around release days how hard they pushed as being the soul successor to the entire genre which wasn't doing great during the time. It was a haven for the disillusioned arpg enjoyers.But they waited years for actual lovers of the genre and the community, to take risk with their own time and money, just to set up programs and websites to help people functionally play the game, and then eventually make their own copy of it.

Reel monay tradeng, boosting never had any impactful measures taken against it. Standard is a cesspool that they have NO SOLUTION on saving so far.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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j33bus wrote:

Pay for advantage is 100% pay to win.

this is a degree of shades argument but what are you even paying for an advantage for?

Playing seismic trap is a bigger advantage than 99% of the skills with unlimited stash tabs :p

these threads are always the same, players that have never experienced pay to win trying to argue that something that's irrelevant is p2w to justify some lack of spending habit they don't really need to justify.

If you hate stash tabs don't buy them you don't need validation to be that way but equally GGG don't deserve to be called p2w just because some players think its a stock market and/or warehouse simulator.

as far as i'm aware its an arpg stop picking up garbage and experience the content :p

[Removed by Support]

You don't need to pay for seismic trap. This is no degree of shades argument. There is a "p2w", and there is a "not p2w". There is no "BOTH p2w and not p2w" in the same game, this isn't some theoretical postulation about undetectable particles. [Removed by Support]

And, if you try go into arguing the definition, you have already shown a lack of arguments against the actual points, so you attack the definition.

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brunowa wrote:

POE is not a game to be "WON", so you can't really Pay to Win.

Who are you competing against? Getting an advantage over? This game is a self-paced game. Do you get some amazing prize for killing Maven first every league? No.

The other argument you might make is that you NEED to pay $$ to be able to complete the game or do all content (which is the REAL meaning of Pay to Win). Which is absolutely NOT the case with POE, as many people have clearly demonstrated that all content can be cleared quite comfortably with the standard 4 tabs.

Unless you're one of the 0.001% who go in races, then this concept of pay to win is defunct.

Scarecrow fallacy.

You intentionally restrict "p2w" to the LITERAL term when every word is taken LITERALLY, and make up your whole defense based around a misunderstood version of the argument, then beat the absolute living excrement out of it for some catharsis.

Rather than seeing it as a term that is sufficient in being usable to show a LACK or PRESENCE of "Real money priced gains" beyond superficial vanity/appearance items.

If you don't understand that TIME SAVED = VALUE GAINED in the game's economy, you need to do things I won't do for you, like understand what the game is and how it works, etc.

You seem at the point of omni rationalization where you'd even defend "selling movement speed boosting modifiers"- Because they do the Identical thing in a different way - SAVE YOU TIME = GIVE YOU MORE VALUE And if you're against that, you're a hypocrite in this regard. Straight up honests.

Also, apologies to the moderators, I think something got redacted from my earlier response to someone because it wasn't appropriate for the forums.

My bad, think I'm spending too much time in the game's global channels, and my forum etiquette is rusty hehe

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allionus wrote:

And, if you try go into arguing the definition, you have already shown a lack of arguments against the actual points, so you attack the definition.

You mean the "actual points" created by your own, subjective definition? Cute.

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There is a "p2w", and there is a "not p2w".

Sure, but you have bad examples of "not p2w" and you have bad examples of "p2w". You're doing everything you can to make everything black or white just to put a label on PoE. Is PoE "P2W"? Maybe. Is it as bad as "Clash of clans"? FAR from, but you still want to put them in the same, stereotypical box. Why? Because you see no scale, no nuances, only black or white. I stole something in my youth; does that put me in the same box as a murderer? We're both criminals, right? ;)

Even by your own, subjective definition of "P2W", PoE has a VERY minimal amount of P2W. Still, you seem very personal attack by that "fact".

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allionus wrote:

You intentionally restrict "p2w" to the LITERAL term when every word is taken LITERALLY, and make up your whole defense based around a misunderstood version of the argument, then beat the absolute living excrement out of it for some catharsis.

Rather than seeing it as a term that is sufficient in being usable to show a LACK or PRESENCE of "Real money priced gains" beyond superficial vanity/appearance items.

Haha, "stop reading into the words of the acronym, and start using my personal, subjective interpretation of the acronym instead". Again; cute.

Just the fact that there's even a discussion around the fact - that YOU started - KNOWING people would disagree with you, just proves that PoE finds itself in a rather grey area, or a very mild form of P2W at worst. But you go on with your crusade, I wish you all the best :)

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Phrazz wrote:

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allionus wrote:

And, if you try go into arguing the definition, you have already shown a lack of arguments against the actual points, so you attack the definition.

You mean the "actual points" created by your own, subjective definition? Cute.

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There is a "p2w", and there is a "not p2w".

Sure, but you have bad examples of "not p2w" and you have bad examples of "p2w". You're doing everything you can to make everything black or white just to put a label on PoE. Is PoE "P2W"? Maybe. Is it as bad as "Clash of clans"? FAR from, but you still want to put them in the same, stereotypical box. Why? Because you see no scale, no nuances, only black or white. I stole something in my youth; does that put me in the same box as a murderer? We're both criminals, right? ;)

Even by your own, subjective definition of "P2W", PoE has a VERY minimal amount of P2W. Still, you seem very personal attack by that "fact".

Just the fact that there's even a discussion around the fact - that YOU started - KNOWING people would disagree with you, just proves that PoE finds itself in a rather grey area, or a very mild form of P2W at worst. But you go on with your crusade, I wish you all the best :)

Again, misrepresentation. My own "subjective" definition? Are you using the 200x oxford definition of pay 2 win to win an argument brother?

You are constantly trying to re-frame it as something it isn't talking about, then giving yourself points for owning that majorly.

No advantage for money= not pay 2 win.
Advantage for money= pay 2 win.

People who argue in the realm of semantics and definitions, will get lost in it themselves.

"minimal advantage" - now that is what you call a "your own, subjective definition".

Again, like the previous person - you compare it to WORSE models of p2w, and then redeem it based on a worse game's system.

It's better, but still the same basket as clash of clans. The mobile version of PoE only makes more sense after you said this.

There's no "grey area", it's not a color or a moral lesson story with a twist.

P2w either exists, or doesn't. its a 1 or 0 thing. not a marker somewhere on the infinite landscapes of all pay to wins and play to wins.

After hoo'ing and humming over it; finally broke down and brought a supporter pack. After all by this point I've probably put in enough time into the game that I would have for a 60 buck game. Why not? Got the armor skin, picked up another skin to have 2 at least, and used the extra bonus funds they gave me to pick up stash tabs. A fair amount.

Currency, Gem, Card and 2 Premium tabs.

So I have finally paid for advantage, and put money into this pay to win game.

Why am I still stalling out in yellow maps? That's weird. I'm supposed to be winning now aren't I? This doesn't seem right. Wow I must be really bad at the game.

Guess I should go buy more stash tabs to get better huh?

Honestly I'm just reminded of TF2 where you have a limit to your inventory which is enough to have like every alternate weapon and a fair amount of hats. But if you want to 'win' the game, pay out for more storage for the trading.

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allionus wrote:

Again, like the previous person - you compare it to WORSE models of p2w, and then redeem it based on a worse game's system.

I don't redeem it; I tolerate it. The same do you, it seems - as you play the game. And yes, I try to shift the focus over to something that REALLY matters; the scale/amount of P2W, because labeling PoE as "P2W" without any form of scale, explanation or comparisons is as unfair as it gets - because, as you said yourself, you're putting PoE in the same basket as Clash of Clans, even though the amount of PoE's "P2W" is closer to a non-P2W game than it is Clash of Clans'.

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MerlinCross wrote:

After hoo'ing and humming over it; finally broke down and brought a supporter pack. After all by this point I've probably put in enough time into the game that I would have for a 60 buck game. Why not? Got the armor skin, picked up another skin to have 2 at least, and used the extra bonus funds they gave me to pick up stash tabs. A fair amount.

Currency, Gem, Card and 2 Premium tabs.

So I have finally paid for advantage, and put money into this pay to win game.

Why am I still stalling out in yellow maps? That's weird. I'm supposed to be winning now aren't I? This doesn't seem right. Wow I must be really bad at the game.

Guess I should go buy more stash tabs to get better huh?

Honestly I'm just reminded of TF2 where you have a limit to your inventory which is enough to have like every alternate weapon and a fair amount of hats. But if you want to 'win' the game, pay out for more storage for the trading.

It's great you're supporting the team and I'm with you on believing if a person feels they get enough value out of the game, only makes sense to show financial support.

I've got a few hundy hours in tf2 and i love that game whenever i play it (most aversion is caused from lack of servers at times), that system is good, and in the least, much better than PoE. The especially great thing about tf2 over PoE is that you can Sell items without having to be logged into the game and give the devs better annual reports to show with artificially inflated "played hours per capita". You don't have to buy storage as you'll get it from drops (I have storage unlocks i've not used in years just because items move out and in much faster).

And even with just a few hundred hours in tf2, compared to PoE's nearing 5000, I've spent MORE money on TF2.