Convince me Stash tab "MTX" is not pay to win

I dont redefine anything, you try to do it. Also yes, even in your hyperbolic example its not p2w as long as the price tag is not retarded. You have no advantage over someone who also got that weapon therfore you are not stronger so its not p2w, its just a price to play the game.

See spending this 30$ lets me be on par with a dude that spent 10 000. How can this be p2w?

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Darkness3d wrote:

....... 99.9% needed for every player.

Whooohooo!! I'm finally a 0.1%er!!!!

Ah the age old argument.

It is p2w.

Cosmetic MTX are not, but tabs are. Especially the kind that allows you to go past stack limit or upgrade components in a single click.

PoE after all these years still isn't an all-out Korean buy-immunity or mobile buy-exalts shitfest, but tabs are what they are.

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johnKeys wrote:

upgrade components in a single click.

The essence tab? If you are picking up anything below screaming or quite frankly shrieking this league that tab is pay 2 lose like most tabs.

You guys aren't winning shit so you can't be paying to win, there are like 10 players that can claim stash tabs are p2w because they have the acumen to use them to their fullest and an objective orientated around them that would suffer if they didn't have them and their peers did.

Everyone else is deluding themselves if they think some major gameplay advantage comes for their 4000 death copy pasted meta build having an essence and fragment tab.

Heres how p2w works, If I get my wallet out am I gonna significantly outperform players in a similar space? In PoE the answers No, they don't sell 100% movespeed on the shop or 50% less damage taken, most players will get absolutely caned by a player slightly more experienced with no tabs at all.

If you get your wallet out in Raid:Toxic MobilePOS, BDO, Lineage etc are you gonna significantly outperform players in a similar space? My fucking god yes, I made a f2p raid account to see how shit it was and it'd take years on a f2p account to do anything relevant on the same scale as a wallet warrior.

This distinction is lost when players turn up to have an argument about whether a game barely dipping one toe in the pool is p2w when there are plenty of games fully submerged swimming around in the pool drinking every dollar you'll give them in return for some more power.

If PoE is p2w the term is functionally worthless as you've made it so broad it covers everything

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allionus wrote:

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Raycheetah wrote:

Look: GGG could either limit us to four vanilla stash tabs and call it a day, or make more and better stash tabs available. But in doing so, they have to limit them somehow; they can't just hand them out willy-nilly... Or is that what you expect them to do, and for free? Aside from the fact that stash tabs pay to keep the servers running, of course, way ahead of all other MTX sales in revenue generation... =9[.]9=

It's much simpler than that - FIX Trade system's SLOW movement of items, the Extremely temporal chained to near-petrification rate of trading (even the very process of contacting sellers is absolute herpes. The intentional "limiting selling only when playing game" must be removed as it literally 'redlines' certain areas of the world based on their active hours coinciding. The whole market is NEVER fully accessible as people keep waking up and going to sleep (often just afk idle in hideout to sell items by getting orders that wait- all giving ggg massive spike in FAKE, forced player engagement).

Don't leave "the option of selling a listed item" with the seller. They will *OBVIOUSLY abuse it and manipulate price by item dangling* at whim. How to even blame the scalpers, it's all incentivized by ggg.

etc etc


I never said 'it's too expensive', or 'make it free'. Make it worth buying. The interface EVEN IN PREMIUMS, is bare-boned, so even when people PAY IN FULL - they STILL suffer from a poorly made system which is a slight, paid-for-improvement over its inferior precursor.

3rd party tools have better search for one example- ggg will probably rip them off and gut their earnings once they improve it enough, probably -just like poe/trade

NONE of what you just posted has anything to do with P2W. It's a complaint about trade. I'll just drop you a "Nice Strawman" and leave you to it. =9[.]9=

I'd just like to restate my wish that everyone here should have the best possible day they can muster under whatever circumstance they find themselves in.

@Draegnarrr, "significantly" is unnecessary.
Over the years we as players learned to expect the unexpected from the "full" p2w games out there. The EA or Actiblizz loot boxes. The mobile "buy now" pop up crap.

PoE isn't one of those, thankfully.
Though I guess the temptation was there.

But, name one player out there who hasn't bought at least a couple tabs.
There's a reason for it. The game is borderline unplayable at this point, without some tabs.
The one guy in this thread who said he plays with 4 normal tabs, must be doing it in full S&M gear, while upside down on a giant hamster wheel.

It differs from any other MTX you'd buy to look cool or support GGG.

No reason to deny it, even as a certified fan of the game and the team.

I honestly wish they just make the game pay to play and give us a starter pack of tabs.
And then remove most of the legacy crap that's been clogging my Standard stash after almost 10 years.

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johnKeys wrote:

Ah the age old argument.

It is p2w.

Cosmetic MTX are not, but tabs are. Especially the kind that allows you to go past stack limit or upgrade components in a single click.

PoE after all these years still isn't an all-out Korean buy-immunity or mobile buy-exalts shitfest, but tabs are what they are.

This "age old arguement" is still just as ridiculous as it was "ages ago" in a PvE games.

If I bust out the CC and swipe what have I won? What is winning in PoE anyways? Is it finishing the acts? Unlocking the Atals? Killing Maven? Level 100? Hell level 85? It's all demonstratively ambiguous, and laughable in context.

Tabs at best help organize an admittedly messy PoE loot and currency system, and at worst its critical for PoE stock market players efficiency levels. I honestly couldnt care less about flipping, and market dominance, and that's not a victory anyways.

Its such an empty arguement it's barely worth having at all. I'm shocked it went this far.

Folks bottom line its simple. You cant P2W when there is nothing to win.

Edit: spelling , phone autocorrect OP

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johnKeys wrote:

The one guy in this thread who said he plays with 4 normal tabs, must be doing it in full S&M gear, while upside down on a giant hamster wheel.

I think you'd find it pretty liberating actually lol its fun not picking stuff up and just doing priority focus on stuff that matters.

I completely agree the game feels better with a few tabs, i've got a currency one for example but I never bothered with the rest including the map tab which gets me labelled as a weirdo.

But a f2p game setting you up to probably drop a minor investment is not pay2win lmao you've not beaten me by buying a map tab nor could you even if there was some kind of competition.

You and many posters here have conflated not really free with p2w, PoE isn't really free I wouldn't recommend it to anyone without a currency and map tab but those "required" purchases have absolutely nothing to do with being p2w they aren't the same.

Those tabs aren't about power any more than buying some MTX so you don't look like a paedophile hobo at endgame is about power and both are probably necessary for most players.

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allionus wrote:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Uh, yes you are.

^_^

I'm also a former uber-whale who has created a few items for the game. And a monster. And still hold the record for most posts made here with any modicum of quality, although the merciful incineration of my 'main' account makes that a bit harder to prove.

Some called me Ruler of Wraeclast; most didn't dare call me an egotistical bastard. The truth is there's no difference.

Goddamnit how did i not see this before!!! That's insaneo style af!! What are the items you made? Who's tha monster?? Tell me and i will bleed and die to it once as homage!!!!!!!!!!

I came close back in the day to losing my account but survived, not like there's too much on it- what happened to yours?

Seems I'm about as adept at quitting this thread as you are. Misery, company, etc.

I made the Goddess swords, and the Drop bear monster aka the Plummeting Ursa. I also gave some input on the map Acton's Nightmare. I think I funded Malachai's Artifice by donating the design slot to a well-known streamer since I liked the idea but can't quite remember now -- there were a lot of pain pills back in those days. Almost totally unrelated to the more subtle pain of being a main advocate for a game went off its once-reliable rails long ago.

I asked the devs to delete my main account for a number of reasons, a few petty, most deeply cathartic. I could no longer straddle the worlds of super-supporter and hyper-critic. I managed it for years but once GGG sold out to Tencent, a company I've long loathed on several fronts, I knew a decision was coming, and no longer felt any residual loyalty to a company proud of its grassroots and garage origins. Nothing will change, they said. As long as things continue as they are. Things changed anyway, because they always do. Some changes we can see; others we can only infer -- for example, what design choices do they now make behind the scenes based around the notion of PoE needing to conform to Chinese standards? It would be silly to plan something you know will be censored by the ultimate owners of the game, wouldn't it?

Like I said, mere inference. Less subtle? Pandering to high profile streamers, breaking their own rules 'for a truckload of money', distinct increase in MTX releases, and now a Battle Pass where once they ran races for free that did essentially the same thing. Nothing will change. Pfffft.

I'd already quit the game by then anyway. I tried it again briefly on console a few months ago. Lasted a whole half hour. I still care deeply about the game as a concept and am happy to provide my unique take on certain things, but I don't miss actually playing it at all.

And yes, you knew this already: there was never any argument in this thread to be won. Or lost. Just coarse opinions rubbing against each other for lack of real, meaningful contact. Well done though. You dragged in pretty much everyone I'd expect to see. Quite the abrasive little Bacchanalia. Bravo.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Folks bottom line its simple. You cant P2W when there is nothing to win.

Nay, good sir. That's not the bottom line; that's a parenthetical observation. A pithy roll-cage witticism perfect for polite laughter and another round of sherry...but too uncynical by half.

The bottom line is there's never nothing to win. And when it appears there isn't a win condition, the first thing people do is create one.

The second thing people do is figure out how to profit from someone else's idea of winning. ^_^