Convince me Stash tab "MTX" is not pay to win

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Phrazz wrote:

Nine pages? Pretty clear that this subject is at least objectively debatable, and isn't as black and white os the picture OP is painting. But anyhow, in 2022 - when F2P games are flooding the market and P2W games are everywhere, the important thing is HOW the game is attacking your credit card.

Was that an argumentum ad populum to pass the debate as a "grey topic". Sheeshhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Simple,- either ggg goes extinct soon, or lives long enough where another game with an actually functional system will threaten its existence and force change regardless of greed stat points being maxed out by the heads of ggg/tencent.

*OR* a miracle happens, and they fix their slimy tactics before any threat emerges.

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satanttin wrote:

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allionus wrote:

Argument in short :-

Purchasable stash tabs (of all kind) = Time saving advantage over players who do not buy the same product.

do you think so? imagine playing with 4 tabs. u know exactly where everything is vs having to look 20+ stash tabs to reach what ur looking for.

it's more like pay to lose. convince me otherwise.

There's a lot of numbers between 4 and 20 (420 damn blaze it), where your argument doesn't work. It also assumes everyone has the same stash managing capacity, which they don't. 20 is 5 times more than 4 = 5 times more item storing/selling space. Please look at it more objectively.

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j33bus wrote:

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Draegnarrr wrote:

this is a degree of shades argument but what are you even paying for an advantage for?

The thing is once you get into shades you're no longer arguing "is it or isn't it" you're arguing "is it too much" which is a more important argument, except that GGG set the line themselves with "Never pay to win" Which means that any at all is too much.

On the binary scale of "is it or isn't it" buying stash tabs is the same as buying levels or gear. It's paying money to better engage in the games primary advancement method, namely trading.

Yep it's GGG's words. *Never*. But looks more like *forever*. People want to believe the story ggg is pushing. They are not defending the system, but the story they believe.

The idol, but not the thing that hides behind.

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brunowa wrote:

wtf, did Foreverhappychan literally write a 1,710 word essay on this subject?

hehe

I'm not familiar with that person, or post unfortunately.

Update- i did actually read that yeah - my mistake, I saw the "wtf, did" as "wtf, didn't", and that made me think the essay was written elsewhere, like on another thread, and without the quoted post, i thought it was something which was similar to my post. Happened all in like 2 sec lol sorry

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brunowa wrote:

There are two official definitions of P2W:

1) Pay to win = needing to pay $$ to complete the game and/or do all content.
2) Pay to win = being faster and therefore "winning" the game when there are prizes on the line.

Why POE is not Pay to Win related to above:

1) Many people have demonstrated you don't need any more than 4 tabs to do all content, dismissing point 1 above.
2) This only applies to the 0.001% of people that compete in races and are actually going after some kind of prize. As the Shaper would say, for 99.9% of people winning the game is "irrelevant".

You've ignored all of trade, and stashes' critical relationship with the trade system. It's not related to "how much content you can kill", i don't like the overlooking of points and hyper focusing on one little thing, which the main post didn't have, because it's irrelevant and I knew that while posting :(

3) Pay to win = Paying to be able to clear content faster by reducing time spent dumping, finding, and sorting items, quicker access to price changing, quicker listing items, faster refreshing, quicker item extracting, stacking, all compounding into a large speed advantage.

How did this get overlooked when I LITERALLY mentioned this in the main post?

How do you not know that having LESS stashes means you can make less builds, try less things, mix and match less, without needing to buy all gear again? For which you need Currency, which ALSO takes storage space.

The argument you beat, was never an argument i made. So I don't know what you destroyed, but it wasn't me.

It's like you did a substitution jutsu for me hehe

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Raycheetah wrote:

Look: GGG could either limit us to four vanilla stash tabs and call it a day, or make more and better stash tabs available. But in doing so, they have to limit them somehow; they can't just hand them out willy-nilly... Or is that what you expect them to do, and for free? Aside from the fact that stash tabs pay to keep the servers running, of course, way ahead of all other MTX sales in revenue generation... =9[.]9=

It's much simpler than that - FIX Trade system's SLOW movement of items, the Extremely temporal chained to near-petrification rate of trading (even the very process of contacting sellers is absolute herpes. The intentional "limiting selling only when playing game" must be removed as it literally 'redlines' certain areas of the world based on their active hours coinciding. The whole market is NEVER fully accessible as people keep waking up and going to sleep (often just afk idle in hideout to sell items by getting orders that wait- all giving ggg massive spike in FAKE, forced player engagement).

Don't leave "the option of selling a listed item" with the seller. They will *OBVIOUSLY abuse it and manipulate price by item dangling* at whim. How to even blame the scalpers, it's all incentivized by ggg.

etc etc


I never said 'it's too expensive', or 'make it free'. Make it worth buying. The interface EVEN IN PREMIUMS, is bare-boned, so even when people PAY IN FULL - they STILL suffer from a poorly made system which is a slight, paid-for-improvement over its inferior precursor.

3rd party tools have better search for one example- ggg will probably rip them off and gut their earnings once they improve it enough, probably -just like poe/trade

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SneakySanta wrote:

Absolutely NOT p2win.

Its just pay to get quality of life.

I've played lots of private servers lineage 2.

And there u get real pay to win systems.

You are literaly paying there to get super weapons with wich u destroy in pvp the oponents easy as candy.

That is the definition of pay to win.

Anything that's more hidden than a super obvious super weapon that insta nukes bosses is NOT p2w.
Ok Got you. We can wrap this up guys, I'm convinced :(

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AcrylicHercules wrote:

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brunowa wrote:

There are two official definitions of P2W

There are exactly zero "official definitions" of P2W. I mean, what could "official definition" even mean? Who decides? Who exactly gets to say what's an "official definition"? Is there some universally accepted Board of Official Definitions?

P2W is subjective. And why does it even matter? This whole thread reads like a middle school playground session of "I know you are, but what am I?"

The "interpretation by individuals" of what is p2w is subjective. Not the FACT of p2w itself. that is a property existing outside minds, and not in any way subjective in its state - Only in interpretation

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allionus wrote:

"Truly p2w", this is a "no true scotsman" fallacy. It's an either/or thing. One exists, the other doesn't. Both can't exist in the game system.

What you're describing, is just a more extreme version of what ggg does. Sure then they're not the same, but just because they're different from each other, doesn't mean only 1 of them remains in the P2W category.

I'm not calling every game out there P2W. Just try think how many games "every game" includes.

The 30$ statement, you can't speak for everyone. This point would have been valid if they automatically added stash tabs for new currency to that one time payment. But that's not how it is, is it now?

And they do just that. You also can use generic tabs for that stuff. 30$ gets you 2 normal tabs, 1premium, 1 currency 1 map. You wont ever need anything beyond that.

Going by your stupid logic every gamę is p2w. Witcher 3 is p2w since you have to buy it. FF14 is p2w since its pay to play etc. Requiring a payment does not and never will make a game p2w.

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allionus wrote:

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brunowa wrote:

wtf, did Foreverhappychan literally write a 1,710 word essay on this subject?

hehe

I'm not familiar with that person, or post unfortunately.

Uh, yes you are.

^_^

I'm also a former uber-whale who has created a few items for the game. And a monster. And still hold the record for most posts made here with any modicum of quality, although the merciful incineration of my 'main' account makes that a bit harder to prove.

Some called me Ruler of Wraeclast; most didn't dare call me an egotistical bastard. The truth is there's no difference.

Anyway you're holding your own here against some of the staunchest chrome chevaliers this forum yet claims as its own (the quality of the froth and foam dropped a little when I switched sides, sadly, but they do their best) which is impressive in and of itself. Happy (*snigger*) to watch this slow, grinding train stubbornly refuse to wreck itself.