Xp loss isnt needed in 2022

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Sarno wrote:

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MorsExTenebris wrote:

Well, my friend, that's a fallacy. As soon as one reaches 100, decisions are no longer meaningful as there are no consequences.

You appear to be arguing that a temporary benefit may as well not exist at all, which isn’t a perspective I’m inclined to share. Your post also just reads unnecessarily hostile…

You may wanna look at the posts below your if you wanna see hostile. Mors was disagreeing while the others are name calling.

I disagree though, video games are supposed to be fun, losing xp to nonsense isnt (for me).

xp loose isnt bad as an idea.
but xp loose for game crash with death is funny. especially at all last leagues (poe code quality is horrible). just today i loose 20% in 1 map cus game crash 2 times in same place. yay. and all servers hickups etc. lag spikes till 600 cus u add 9999 patches with fixes becouse NOONE test game changes before run season.

should we be penalized for dying?

Yes.

should the penalty be experience?

No.

level 100 isn't some achievement to brag about or some grand power that only few should be able to obtain. its roughly 3-4% more power than most people see from their passive tree. Its not something that is needed.

However reaching level 100 isn't the reason why the penalty for dying shouldn't be exp loss. its that exp loss for dying is a penalty only in name. it doesn't mean anything and is a long dated holdover from games long ago where punishment was implemented everywhere for every reason imaginable.

so what should the penalty actually be?

well as exp loss has no serious tangible effect on our character or progress(and arguably never really did) it should be changed.

But to what?

Something tangible, something with weight, but importantly only when applied at the right time.

Is dying to random trash during a map a meaningful time to impose a penalty?

No, because the player is not engaging with important content.

Then what is important content?

In Path of Exile, arguably the most impactful fights are bosses, specifically those with arenas and distinct mechanics.

So how would a good penalty for such a fight look? Experience loss is a meaningless, archaic holdover that doesn't make you think about your death. We need to change it to something that makes you stop and think about what it is that you did and what to do next time.

What would accomplish this effectively but wouldn't make the player feel like they got unfairly punished?

what is a fair penalty? pretty simply put: a fair punishment is to distance the player from their current micro objective.(micro here meaning short term/immediate goal). Exp loss is a penalty against something that could only loosely be considered a Macro objective. (macro here means long term goals or objectives that generally have many steps to reach or obtain)

not everyone is going to make level 100 a goal so we need to target something that will effect everyone equally and fairly. More importantly, the penalty has to be something that is impactful only in the moment against the players short term goals.

Back to the most impactful fights mentioned before, Bosses. A good penalty for bosses is to recover hp. A fair penalty for bosses that recover hp is hp recovery based on the percentage of players that died.

Dying to a boss fully resetting its hp as a solo player would be a fair punishment, but having a single person of a six man party die fully resetting the boss hp would be unfair because you punish everyone for one persons mistake.

Lets craft a scenario: 6 people enter a boss fight. Halfway through the fight 2 people die. lets assume for this example that it resets to full hp. the remaining 4 players are now out all of the effort they expended AND down two members on a six portal system. this is clearly not fair for them. but if in the same scenario the boss instead only regains 1/6 of its hp per death then the only the efforts of the player who died are annulled. this is more fair as the remaining players only have to put in a fraction of the effort they would have to on a full reset.

If a single player were to enter the boss fight and at some point they die the resetting the fight to zero by fully restoring the boss hp is fair.(and solves some other issues from a design standpoint where damage is concerned).

For a party you cant reset to zero after only one death because it would be too harsh a punishment, especially a full party of 6 people. For a single player they get 6 tries but what about the full party? they get one. however both the group and the solo players immediate goals is beating this boss right now.

a penalty should target the immediate goals of a player or group, NOT previous successes. Exp loss doesn't target the immediate goals of players or groups it only invalidates some arbitrary measure of past effort.

Of course other systems would have to be changed around such an implementation such as rewards being more heavily weighted behind the bosses in some way but the Penalty itself would be meaningful in a way that exp loss is not. it would effect everyone that died equally.

group play is slightly different as you have to treat the group a single entity in a way but separate entities in other ways.

The most important thing is to not penalize players by taking away things they already have, but by making it so that only by succeeding do they actually gain anything new.

there is more than just this to consider when talking about penalties but that would be far too long for this already far too long post.

TL:DR exp loss does not impact all players equally in a meaningful way as only some players care about level 100 so a different system is needed to penalize death fairly and meaningfully.

One problem with your proposal: Most good players in this game don't die to bosses--they die to getting bursted down by trash mobs. So your proposal would only penalize less experienced players while giving the experienced folks a free ride.

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One problem with your proposal: Most good players in this game don't die to bosses--they die to getting bursted down by trash mobs. So your proposal would only penalize less experienced players while giving the experienced folks a free ride.

should a veteran be punished simply because he doesn't make the mistakes a rookie makes? should he be punished because the rookie made mistakes? or should the lack of punishment be the reward for not making those mistakes?

as i said in my other post:

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Something tangible, something with weight, but importantly only when applied at the right time.

Is dying to random trash during a map a meaningful time to impose a penalty?

No, because the player is not engaging with important content.

the penalty should apply to people in situations where it would be meaningful to penalize mistakes not every situation.

the experienced players that don't die to bosses don't make mistakes that inexperienced players do. the experienced players that do die will receive the penalty for dying just like everyone else

additionally i did mention that you would have to change other systems to compensate and also be forced to stop, think, and learn

to expect to receive rewards for failing to complete your goals and challenges is foolish.

I die all the time because I am reckless, prioritize efficiency and build for damage, not defenses. And I fully support the xp penalty because this build and playstyle needs to have weaknesses.

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Squishysquish wrote:

level 100 isn't some achievement to brag about or some grand power that only few should be able to obtain. its roughly 3-4% more power than most people see from their passive tree. Its not something that is needed.

What is or isn't an achievement depends on what is designed to be. If the devs clearly said that something is intended to be an achievement, I'd say there's no room to discuss it further.

I agree that those 3-4% more power isn't something that is needed, though :)
If we, dunno, got two extra ascendancy points for hitting level 100, there might be room for discussing 'should that be an achievement or not'. As things currently are, I couldn't make that argument, not in good faith at least, I'd have no ground to stand on.

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Johny_Snow wrote:

I die all the time because I am reckless, prioritize efficiency and build for damage, not defenses. And I fully support the xp penalty because this build and playstyle needs to have weaknesses.

the exp penalty is not a meaningful penalty to discourage your reckless behavior. based on your comment i assume that when you die you just shrug and immediately go back through a portal not giving it any thought.

the exp penalty doesn't have weight and this is an example of why.

Except by this point I'd probably be level 98 and these 4 points would be undeserved.

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What is or isn't an achievement depends on what is designed to be. If the devs clearly said that something is intended to be an achievement, I'd say there's no room to discuss it further.

I agree that those 3-4% more power isn't something that is needed, though :)
If we, dunno, got two extra ascendancy points for hitting level 100, there might be room for discussing 'should that be an achievement or not'. As things currently are, I couldn't make that argument, not in good faith at least, I'd have no ground to stand on.

i suppose what different people consider an achievement does indeed differ from person to person but that isn't the point of my post? id hate to have the other stuff i said overlooked because of a minor subjective detail