Maven's Invitation: The Elderslayers and boss killing at all

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moonretealoud wrote:

The easiest way is to say "hey, it's your own fault, look for mistakes."

And AGAIN I bring up the issue that I, in order to defeat this Invitation, I must either play with a specific build, or ignore until the end of the league, when I destroy this Invitation with a build for 10 mirrors.

Here we go again.
I did it playing a non-meta build on a 10-15ex budget. My build wasnt specifically tailored towards this encounter at all and I failed once or twice trying to complete it.
Cant remember and doesnt matter. I simply tried again until I succeeded eventually.


Its a rough one for sure but it is doable nontheless.
The only guy you need to worry about is Drox. Focus him and burst him down asap.
Everything else is easy from there.

OP: You are wrong about 1 thing--the hardest thing for people to do is to say it's their own fault and they should look for ways to improve. You are a clear example of why. There are plenty of builds that can clear this fight and plenty that do not cost "10 mirrors." I doubt you even have a concept of how much 10 mirrors can get you anyway.

There is a huge difference between knowing good building mechanics and making a strong build and simply having a lot of currency and a lot of busted items. A strong, well-made build can be either glass cannon, balanced, or all tank can beat this and many other difficult encounters when built right. With a good understanding of what makes gear good for your character, the difference between 10 mirrors of gear and a few dozen ex of gear, can often be as little as 10-20% of power. This has a lot to do with the massive diminishing returns that upgrades at that end have for its cost.

PoE is a complex game and good character building foundations are not easy to achieve and certainly isn't common among the majority of players. A bad build with 10 mirrors is still a bad build and won't get anywhere. A well-tuned build can get great results on far less.

You can choose to stay frustrated and keep believing that there is nothing wrong with your knowledge or skill in this game. Or you can choose to be open-minded in that there is much for you to learn to be better at it. Life works the same way--it is easy to blame others for your own failings.

"

SquareCubiC wrote:

Dont wanna be THAT guy,
but my build deals around 1.2 mil dps, with a god awful uptime when i am not on the boss and doing stuff.
and i managed to kill every invitation except for the feared deathless...

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I am happy to win difficult boss fights. I'm not at all happy when you can't win a boss fight with skill just because you didn't kill the boss faster than he killed you.

sry, but this is just frustration talking, instead of accepting failure you blame the concept, design, execution, the game.

it is challenging, but it is also passable.
and just like in real life, you gotta fall to learn how to get up and avoid falling again.
awareness and knowing how to adapt to the fight is the key.
(like, dont use dash or shield charge, use flame dash instead)

The way you make it sound to me is, that you wanna basically have a game, where you could league start with ED/C and kill all content with ease.

from my very own perspective, i enjoy that fight, and even when maven releases them all at the same time, this fight is more than "passable" IF you know what you are doing and when you have to do what you have to do.

Please tell me your build, so I can debunk your nonsense.

There is a few build that can boss well on a budget. But the biggest majority need either a respec for serious bossing, or extreme gear to overcome the hurdles.

To take such builds as the norm, is exactly the mindset from wich all of these problems come from! Because build xy works well but 95% not.

The problem is, people are mapping most of their time. And you have 2 options: Create a dedicated Bosskiller with a decent budget (many people dont have time/currency for that), or play a Bossable character that sucks at mapping from get-go.

If you would take care of every single rippy mechanic ingame via defenses (Passives/Gear etc.) you would have absolute TRASHTIER damage, unless you find some broken Meta interaction, that will be nerfed next league anyways.

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TemjinGold wrote:

OP: You are wrong about 1 thing--the hardest thing for people to do is to say it's their own fault and they should look for ways to improve. You are a clear example of why. There are plenty of builds that can clear this fight and plenty that do not cost "10 mirrors." I doubt you even have a concept of how much 10 mirrors can get you anyway.

There is a huge difference between knowing good building mechanics and making a strong build and simply having a lot of currency and a lot of busted items. A strong, well-made build can be either glass cannon, balanced, or all tank can beat this and many other difficult encounters when built right. With a good understanding of what makes gear good for your character, the difference between 10 mirrors of gear and a few dozen ex of gear, can often be as little as 10-20% of power. This has a lot to do with the massive diminishing returns that upgrades at that end have for its cost.

PoE is a complex game and good character building foundations are not easy to achieve and certainly isn't common among the majority of players. A bad build with 10 mirrors is still a bad build and won't get anywhere. A well-tuned build can get great results on far less.

You can choose to stay frustrated and keep believing that there is nothing wrong with your knowledge or skill in this game. Or you can choose to be open-minded in that there is much for you to learn to be better at it. Life works the same way--it is easy to blame others for your own failings.

Play with what is stronger and not with what is more interesting / fun.
I already understood.
You can be three times the genius of a PoB building build, but you can't make a strong build with a main skill if it doesn't have adequate numbers and an overlap mechanic.
If you are at least ten times the god of HK, you will not be able to make a character with good survivability if you do not take 4-6 defense layers, sacrificing damage and slots for items.

"

SquareCubiC wrote:

gearing properly and knowing the fights is not just a dps check, it is knowledge... which is considerable as skill...

those invitations are aspirational content after all, so you cant expect a 10ex investment build to one shot the bosses on spawn...

Yes sure:

Getting offscreen Shaperbeam while you dodge Atziri Flameblast to get into 5 Other Projectiles from offscreen into 70% of Degen on the ground etc. Sure thats all "Skill"

Your definition of skill is literally: Make a facetank build, that does not die, while trying overcome the complete shitshow of variables, that all can potentially 1 shot from offscreen.

[Removed by Support]
Maybe your next suggestion is, to just run NormalQuality Maps etc., because game is balanced around it, but the droprates not?


GGG at least acknowledges problems, but constantly forget to fix them BECAUSE REASONS.

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Orbaal wrote:

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moonretealoud wrote:

Did I understand your message correctly?

Or you could go for a balanced approach - its totally up to you.

This is a big concern of my point from view.

You either go Full Tank or Full Glasscannon. There is barely any balanced well rounded build. With not full Defense there is always that shitty moment, that just instagibs you! It will happen, I will put my hand into fire for that statement.

You go either Yolo or Tank, nothing inbetween.

"

xX999Xx wrote:

"

SquareCubiC wrote:

Dont wanna be THAT guy,
but my build deals around 1.2 mil dps, with a god awful uptime when i am not on the boss and doing stuff.
and i managed to kill every invitation except for the feared deathless...

"

I am happy to win difficult boss fights. I'm not at all happy when you can't win a boss fight with skill just because you didn't kill the boss faster than he killed you.

sry, but this is just frustration talking, instead of accepting failure you blame the concept, design, execution, the game.

it is challenging, but it is also passable.
and just like in real life, you gotta fall to learn how to get up and avoid falling again.
awareness and knowing how to adapt to the fight is the key.
(like, dont use dash or shield charge, use flame dash instead)

The way you make it sound to me is, that you wanna basically have a game, where you could league start with ED/C and kill all content with ease.

from my very own perspective, i enjoy that fight, and even when maven releases them all at the same time, this fight is more than "passable" IF you know what you are doing and when you have to do what you have to do.

Please tell me your build, so I can debunk your nonsense.

There is a few build that can boss well on a budget. But the biggest majority need either a respec for serious bossing, or extreme gear to overcome the hurdles.

To take such builds as the norm, is exactly the mindset from wich all of these problems come from! Because build xy works well but 95% not.

The problem is, people are mapping most of their time. And you have 2 options: Create a dedicated Bosskiller with a decent budget (many people dont have time/currency for that), or play a Bossable character that sucks at mapping from get-go.

If you would take care of every single rippy mechanic ingame via defenses (Passives/Gear etc.) you would have absolute TRASHTIER damage, unless you find some broken Meta interaction, that will be nerfed next league anyways.

COC Ice nova Occultist, there you go.
thats my bosser
and COC ice nova Assassing is my mapper
and yes, i am switching the whole gear around including the very same jewels, they build completely, like exactly the same.
yet the assassin is feels nicer to map because of elusive.
Occultist is tankier and deals better single target.
it is honestly sad to see someone who apparently (judging by the badges) has so much time spent in PoE doesnt understand the base concept of character building... or encounters...
if you get one shot by a shaper beam, it is actually your own fault, since you stood still, always be moving, like, it is nothing new that you should always be moving...
do you face tank hillock as a melee?
the right way is to move counter clockwise around him.
and that little notion of knowledge is given to you in the very first part of the game, basically any boss is easier when you keep moving.

And my Definition of Skill, is to understand the game, and to understand the basic concept of character building.
a league starter is not necessarily the character that kills aspirational content...

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You either go Full Tank or Full Glasscannon. There is barely any balanced well rounded build. With not full Defense there is always that shitty moment, that just instagibs you! It will happen, I will put my hand into fire for that statement.

You go either Yolo or Tank, nothing inbetween.

this is just awfully wrong dude, especially since clusters got introduced in delirium, you can build both, fairly easy...

And in PoE it has always been a thing, that, knowledge could compensate for lack of mechanical skill. I dunno what else to say, but if you dont have the right mindset, you wont get far with anything else but imbalanced meta builds.

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moonretealoud wrote:

"

TemjinGold wrote:

OP: You are wrong about 1 thing--the hardest thing for people to do is to say it's their own fault and they should look for ways to improve. You are a clear example of why. There are plenty of builds that can clear this fight and plenty that do not cost "10 mirrors." I doubt you even have a concept of how much 10 mirrors can get you anyway.

There is a huge difference between knowing good building mechanics and making a strong build and simply having a lot of currency and a lot of busted items. A strong, well-made build can be either glass cannon, balanced, or all tank can beat this and many other difficult encounters when built right. With a good understanding of what makes gear good for your character, the difference between 10 mirrors of gear and a few dozen ex of gear, can often be as little as 10-20% of power. This has a lot to do with the massive diminishing returns that upgrades at that end have for its cost.

PoE is a complex game and good character building foundations are not easy to achieve and certainly isn't common among the majority of players. A bad build with 10 mirrors is still a bad build and won't get anywhere. A well-tuned build can get great results on far less.

You can choose to stay frustrated and keep believing that there is nothing wrong with your knowledge or skill in this game. Or you can choose to be open-minded in that there is much for you to learn to be better at it. Life works the same way--it is easy to blame others for your own failings.

Play with what is stronger and not with what is more interesting / fun.
I already understood.
You can be three times the genius of a PoB building build, but you can't make a strong build with a main skill if it doesn't have adequate numbers and an overlap mechanic.
If you are at least ten times the god of HK, you will not be able to make a character with good survivability if you do not take 4-6 defense layers, sacrificing damage and slots for items.

imagine not utilizing defense layers in PoE :>
sacrificing damage für defense/ survivability, is actually a meaningful concept, you deadass glasscannon wont deal any damage when dead, will it?
the game is not about dealing dmg in a way you can oneshot bosses, which is why you have to rely on certain interactions/ gear to do so.
on my CoC chars i have 1.2 mil (assa) and 1.5 (occu) mil dps, and i have the time of my life, do i one tap bosses? no.
did i actually get good at the rolling meteors from exarch? hell yea!
could i kill certain bosses with less damage? yes!
because i learned about the encounters, on what to pay attention on etc.
if you are not willing to learn certain things about the game, you wont get far with anything but meta builds, as i just said.

"

TemjinGold wrote:

OP: You are wrong about 1 thing--the hardest thing for people to do is to say it's their own fault and they should look for ways to improve. You are a clear example of why. There are plenty of builds that can clear this fight and plenty that do not cost "10 mirrors." I doubt you even have a concept of how much 10 mirrors can get you anyway.

There is a huge difference between knowing good building mechanics and making a strong build and simply having a lot of currency and a lot of busted items. A strong, well-made build can be either glass cannon, balanced, or all tank can beat this and many other difficult encounters when built right. With a good understanding of what makes gear good for your character, the difference between 10 mirrors of gear and a few dozen ex of gear, can often be as little as 10-20% of power. This has a lot to do with the massive diminishing returns that upgrades at that end have for its cost.

PoE is a complex game and good character building foundations are not easy to achieve and certainly isn't common among the majority of players. A bad build with 10 mirrors is still a bad build and won't get anywhere. A well-tuned build can get great results on far less.

You can choose to stay frustrated and keep believing that there is nothing wrong with your knowledge or skill in this game. Or you can choose to be open-minded in that there is much for you to learn to be better at it. Life works the same way--it is easy to blame others for your own failings.

Can someone please give that man a cookie?!

Thing is, that if you never really tried and built something yourself, you end up being unaware of certain interactions of items and passives.
I think this is something that pretty much everybody that builds their own builds has, but because of the experience, i personally have certain breakpoints (stat wise) i want to have from the tree, before i think something works as intended. such as a certain amount of %inc life and/or ES from tree etc.
PoE is a gigantic Toolbox, but some people try to get a nail in the wall with a saw...

PoE Translates Real World situations quite well:
-you dont wanna click certain currency orbs and splinters and filter them? you miss out on currency/ wealth
-you dont know how to craft? well, you gotta buy your stuff then
-you follow a meta build? the stuff you gotta buy is hella expensive
-your build is unbalanced? well... you know the answer to that
-your knowledge about certain things lack? well, you might not achieve certain things then and end up complaining on a forum demanding a participation trophy. (@xX999Xx not necessarily saying this is you, but many people do that)

and this is what it feels like "i cant clear XY content, but i should be able to" and seeing that most of the time, it's people with a lvl 80ish character, and like 6 challenges done, hurts my brain...

PoE is a lot, i mean really, a lot, aboutd decisions and their consequences, just like real life.

"

it is honestly sad to see someone who apparently (judging by the badges) has so much time spent in PoE doesnt understand the base concept of character building... or encounters...
if you get one shot by a shaper beam, it is actually your own fault, since you stood still, always be moving, like, it is nothing new that you should always be moving...

I dont read any further because you typing just nonsense out of context.

First Shaper Beam is a Degen and cant oneshot. Second I did not write that this can oneshot, third, it seems it is beyond your comprehension about what players are mad.

Let me break down that part for you:

You get struck by the Beam while you used lets say Flamedash out of some Atziri Flameblasts -> <you lost lets say 30% of your HP because of recovery/time etc.

Now you are at a bad spot, because there is some degen that adds probably a debuff.

There are coming GMP Ice Spears from Elder and hit you again. you flamedash again and you see Shaper Balls, you have to dodge and Flamedash again, but you get hit by some Atziri Lightning AoE and moved a bit over the degen again. ALL IN 1-2 Seconds!
How many Flask Charges did you generate? How many Flamedash Cooldowns did you get back?

There is a multitude of different cases that can all heavily go against you and your RNG.

You ran out of flask while using every cooldown to escape some bad rng mechanics/degens.

What is your solution?
Hurrdurr make a new build with a shit ton of regen to do this single bossfight?
Hurrdurr just pay someone an exalt to let him do the boss for Invitation for you?
Hurrdurr use 50 more exalts to upgrade your build or just reroll, or even to install a Chickenautologout script cuz 6 Portals and so on?

Its just over the top bad gamedesign period. And you cant even try to argue that away. Players who play long enough and did the bosses know very well that rng can get you.

We are not talking about a single boss here... (where you simply learn all the patterns and timings)

And thats the problem. I am out of here

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xX999Xx wrote:

"

it is honestly sad to see someone who apparently (judging by the badges) has so much time spent in PoE doesnt understand the base concept of character building... or encounters...
if you get one shot by a shaper beam, it is actually your own fault, since you stood still, always be moving, like, it is nothing new that you should always be moving...

I dont read any further because you typing just nonsense out of context.

First Shaper Beam is a Degen and cant oneshot. Second I did not write that this can oneshot, third, it seems it is beyond your comprehension about what players are mad.

Let me break down that part for you:

You get struck by the Beam while you used lets say Flamedash out of some Atziri Flameblasts -> <you lost lets say 30% of your HP because of recovery/time etc.

Now you are at a bad spot, because there is some degen that adds probably a debuff.

There are coming GMP Ice Spears from Elder and hit you again. you flamedash again and you see Shaper Balls, you have to dodge and Flamedash again, but you get hit by some Atziri Lightning AoE and moved a bit over the degen again. ALL IN 1-2 Seconds!
How many Flask Charges did you generate? How many Flamedash Cooldowns did you get back?

There is a multitude of different cases that can all heavily go against you and your RNG.

You ran out of flask while using every cooldown to escape some bad rng mechanics/degens.

Your solution is to install a Chickenautologout script?

Its just over the top bad gamedesign period. And you cant even try to argue that away. Players who play long enough and did the bosses know very well that rng can get you.

We are not talking about a single boss here... (where you simply learn all the patterns and timings)

And thats the problem. I am out of here

Shaper beam is a degen, yes, and when i look at most rips to shaper beam, it is technically a one shot, since they die immediately. :>

It is not a single boss, that's the only thing i agree on with you.
but each boss has their mechanics, that you to some extent can manipulate... IF you know how.

but hey, out of context? okay
i mean, i can break it down for you too.



yes, maybe using portals to refresh flasks, but thats a legit way to do so.
IF you have not optimized your flasks in terms of charge generation mods on the flasks, also flask mods on belts exist.
Not having your Guard skill on left click also helps a lot.

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xX999Xx wrote:

I am out of here

Thank you for participating. Really illustrative examples were given, which show that in the current form, these fights are very dependent on randomness, and not on the player.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

people on HCSSF can do it

Argument indirectly being the cause of the dispute.
They don't play hcssf with the builds they want, only meta GIGACHAD builds that have a huge defense and broken dps (like DD ignite in the last league, EA ignite in this one).

And the fact that the conditional Doryani Prototype cannot protect itself from lightning degen in any way (except for converting 50% into chaos and reducing damage from degen) is not important, is there the same build that does not use it, and play it right?
The fact that pure dodge builds are also very vulnerable to damage over time is not important, because there is another build that has wild regen.
The fact that non-overlap builds have meager damage because they are balanced at skill levels that can overlap doesn't matter, just play the meta.

You can't even imagine how many interesting build concepts I created went to the trash simply because they are multiple times inferior to meta skills because of their mechanics.