Chris Wilson's vision explained: slowing down the game by enforcing zoom zoom play

I've been thinking about this today as I wish the combat was slower so that open party play was more enjoyable. Open party play is so zoomy, and I can only imagine how easy it could be to reach huge zoom levels by playing in a dedicated party.

How do you slow players down? Do you nerf the players and buff the enemies? That's what was happening last league. But then GGG got review bombed and lost a lot of income.

I was noticing today as I push into higher tier maps, I am slowing down because I have to wait for longer for my minions to kill things. I also have to be super careful when I'm running ahead, because I'm squishy. Because the enemies are an actual threat to my character's life, and my damage is in a place where I don't just evaporate them as soon as they're on my screen, means I'm forced to play more slowly, and carefully. I actually enjoy it, it even looks better when I'm recording it because when you're standing still, the background isn't moving and it helps maintain picture quality in Youtube footage.

So if GGG are trying to slow the game down, why reward players more if they run the content faster, and reward players less if they want to go slow? I think it's a give-and-take thing. If your priority is on the rewards, be it loot, prestige on poe.ninja, in game trophies and cosmetic items, etc, then you might also be willing to sacrifice stopping to smell the roses in order to obtain said rewards. If you care about having subjectively fun gameplay, which one may define as standing there and watching the AI, then it may be fair to say that one cares less about progressing quickly through the content, and is willing to spend more time in their progression. This is why I love standard. Anyways,

I think one of the issues is the expectation of how much time it takes to obtain certain rewards. If a player wishes to kill Sirus on awakening level 8, that's going to take a significant amount of time. Sirus doesn't heal (thankfully), so you can spend 30 minutes fighting him if you wanted to. Or you could spend just a few seconds. We as players have agency over how fast or slow we play the game. Some things definitely suck a lot for slower play, like Alva's Temple - thankfully there's an atlas passive that helps with that!

Anyways, this league in particular, Scourge leage, is one that I initially felt distaste for because it's content with a timer. And as someone who prefers to play slow builds, I even expressed my distaste for it in the feedback forum. But the more I play it, the more I realize how much better this is than Alva's temple (with regards to the timer). It's not like I completely miss out on content by playing Scourge slowly. I'll still be able to get a T10 corrupted map, it's just going to take longer! (and why should I care if it takes longer if I'm prioritizing playing the game slowly?) I can understand how frustrating it can be that certain things rely purely based on luck, but bad luck happens to everybody, even players who play zoomy.

The best argument I can think of to go against myself here is citing the 3 months we have to obtain cosmetic items from the challenges. I think it's very fair for those challenges to have a cutoff point where only a minority of player get certain rewards. The 12 challenge reward is not that hard to get, and besides, the cosmetic items are purely cosmetic. It's the stashes that are the real game changer.

"

YomiSyn wrote:

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

You just don't get it.

Maybe this doesn't mesh up for you. Seems to be a recurring theme. Yikes.

Lol yeah ur right. Things are looking great for GGG and the game. And its everyone's fault but Chris, who is just a plant in the room.

Haha wow.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

Now putting words in my mouth. There is no end to the lengths some will go to. Classic example. Keep it up lmao.

"

YomiSyn wrote:

"

Tsokushin wrote:

Yep. Typical. Nothing but a meme. No surprise. Thanks for sharing.

I have quite a few memes.



Anyway, Boozbaz, I'm sorry that I cannot give you a more detailed response as I'm still laughing at these memes and this guy.

I do, however, fully agree. I will note, as well, that this is something I had wrote about quite a bit ago. You can peruse this thread for the general sentiment then as well.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2569312

If GGG truly wanted a slower paced gameplay while retaining their playerbase, they'd simply incorporate things that rewarded builds that place emphasis in strengths other than pure speed while keeping the speed alive for those who want it. Such a change would give options to gameplay, building upon the foundation of the game's complex mechanics.

Such things would be much better than attempting to shoehorn in a one-size-fits-all approach to the game.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

Anyway, Boozbaz, I'm sorry that I cannot give you a more detailed response....

Apart from the low effort meme which adds next to nothing this was more then enough including the link.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

If GGG truly wanted a slower paced gameplay while retaining their playerbase, they'd simply.....

I do not think this is possible without Major changes given the types of players gained due to the years of dissatisfaction and the decline with Blizzard. Sure it can be improved upon but even then theres going to be some unhappy chunk of the playerbase.

I would love slower gameplay that rewards that playstyle too but honestly hold no hopes for meaningful permanent change towards it in POE until, yes POE 2 COPIUM. Zoom has been present at all stages. Any transition is met with disdain by some on extreme lvls. Even POE 2 will have elements of zoom. Some seem to think and act that the transition will mean going back to BETA slowness lol.

For me the game changed direction a long time ago, during the earlier leagues. There was a decent medium back then imo but the power creep just ramped up and up and up until we had the atrocity that was Harvest. Even this league is just more power creep.

Funnily enough your shoe horn/one size fits all is exactly what that power creep results in. Meaningless gameplay imo. Some want the power but not the challenge. Boring af.

"

many of the major supporters and defenders of the "speed meta" are the people who were hating reflect the most when it was prominent.

If that is true, that is a very solid point.

"

Can you imagine the potential backlash of GGG slowing all of that down or attempting meaningful ways of toning it down?

I'd imagine both the forums and reddit would be in an uproar.

I agree, and I that's why pointed out the review bomb last august.

"

There's nothing in this game currently that says "it's ok/really good to take this slower"

<--- that's from 2019 so understandibly it might not be up to date with the current version of the game. But I can see GGG making efforts to give players reward for slowing down - like actually reading the mods on an expedition before jumping into something that will get you killed.

"

Player speed cannot be modified above base

I like this idea. It's kind of like temporal chains. (edit: he's talking about a mod on maps with an upside of increased item quant/rarity to compensate for the downside)

"

Some want the power but not the challenge. Boring af.

Yep, I quit Warframe because the devs continued to cave in to players demands for powercreep and the outcries whenever there were nerfs. The game became trivially easy, and as you would expect, boring. Now I'm here in POE.

"

YomiSyn wrote:

Apart from the low effort meme which adds next to nothing this was more then enough including the link.

If you had given high quality posts from the start, you would've gotten more out of me.

"

I do not think this is possible without Major changes given the types of players gained due to the years of dissatisfaction and the decline with Blizzard. Sure it can be improved upon but even then theres going to be some unhappy chunk of the playerbase.

It's funny you say this and then classic releases and heavily dampens blight league.

"

Funnily enough your shoe horn/one size fits all is exactly what that power creep results in. Meaningless gameplay imo. Some want the power but not the challenge. Boring af.

This is incorrect. Turning slower gameplay into an option, rather than globally enforced rule is far different from power creep. Global buffs and global nerfs to enforce a "gameplay style" only kills the game. Even if harvest were still returned to full power (your dreaded power creep) There's still

1) Differences in gear acquisition and crafting.
2) Differences in combat approach
3) Differences in tankiness
4) Differences in game mechanics (blight vs delve vs etc.)

The entire idea that power creep gives into homogenization only holds true if you follow every single league that includes a timer. Harvest/blight/expedition are the only leagues that didn't explicitly reward fast clearspeed builds.

"

Boozbaz wrote:

Yep, I quit Warframe because the devs continued to cave in to players demands for powercreep and the outcries whenever there were nerfs. The game became trivially easy, and as you would expect, boring. Now I'm here in POE.

It's weird, I stopped playing warframe because of the ridiculous grinds they introduced and the forcing of archwing content in planes of eidolon. The best part of that game for me was facing bosses using only melee weapons, but as the game progressed, they shifted from a "choose how you approach the game" to "you have to use guns/archwing now".

I respond appropriately and accordingly.

Ah yes Classic.

When Blizzard reeled people back when they still believed COPIUM and then dumpsters on both classic and the players that wanted actual classic. You dont like how WoW has changed to cater to the casuals? Come play classic! But wait theres more!!! This wont be the classic you think. Oh no no no no! UHM Classic.

Blight league had its own problems like performance at start and if you havnt noticed yet I have not defended GGGs balance decisions over the years. The movement of players back and forth is in fact part of why I wrote what I did before.

"This is incorrect...Even if harvest were still returned to full power (your dreaded power creep).."

Thanks for Your opinion however misguided I may find it. I wouldn't expect anything less from a Harvester telling me I am wrong. Oh look someone who had a different experience/perspective/preference then you with another game!

I wish they would get rid of flasks. Its garbage. 95% of all builds revolve around spamming flasks. Have 1 hp flask, 1 mana flask, 1 utility flask option. Actually have the game revolve around builds and gear instead of flasks. How about acutally playing the game instead of constantly spamming 1-5, half the people probably on macros.

I try to find non flask builds every season and its getting impossible. After hitting 94-95, its almost impossible even with 10k cusion, max block, max spell block to not get 1 hit every 3-5 T16 maps while trying for scourge or some of the extras in maps that make it fun. This makes it really annoying and pretty much just give up 3-4 weeks in at 94 because the fun content destroys hours of xp for the chance at getting whacked.

"

YomiSyn wrote:

Thanks for Your opinion however misguided I may find it. I wouldn't expect anything less from a Harvester telling me I am wrong. Oh look someone who had a different experience/perspective/preference then you with another game!

Stats are even worse because the guy who calculated this on reddit didn't even bother showing this league's results. But, you cannot argue the stats. That's why you're living high on that copium, because for all of your cries against powercreep, changes you value have lead the game here.

Furthermore, I'm not calling you unintelligent, but rather your disapproval against harvest is slightly implying a lack of higher mental engagement in the game.

That is, GGG stumbled upon a literal goldmine through harvest in a completely untapped potential that they don't even realize. Of any of the genres of any media one can be exposed to, RNG is actually most desired in puzzles, which do require that higher mental engagement.

And harvest was that puzzle solving through it's steps in augments, targeted annuls, etc.

But, you don't really care, as you sit behind your private account. So, sit there, and breathe deep.



No matter what you say, or how you feel, or what direction you think the game ought to go, the numbers do not lie.