Death penalty - a thorough suggestion
" I would usually wait until more people have answered but since I am here might as well address this. The reason the changes are needed are simple - they reduce unneeded frustration. You will not be "stuck" at level 100, you would have reached the maximum level. This will actually give people the feeling of accomplishment, not diminish it. Just like killing Sirus for the first time or Uber Shaper, Atziri, etc. you will actually say "okay, I did it". And not just everyone will be able to get it - you would need to exclusively do T16 maps or content which is the equivalent of T16 maps consistently. If you are able to clear through them easy-peasy, then getting 100 should be, well, easy-peasy. Saying one did nothing to deserve it is just not true. Again, you're doing T16 maps or higher. How is that not deserving of it? You are doing the hardest (currently) content in the game and you are getting rewarded for it. Why should it feel like less of an accomplishment? One last thing - alienating the more casual playerbase will only hurt the game in the long run. This isn't a pay to own game like Darksouls, it requires constant upkeep in servers, dev time, etc. If you lose most of your more casual players, it will force GGG to either aggressively monetize the game, to shut down or to do drastic changes which will alienate all of the people used to the game being super "hardcore". Making the game more accessible by removing the exp loss on death will not break the game. In fact, they could add a reward for reaching level 100 which is related to player power like a node which gives you a sizeable boost to player power, ensuring that the journey was worth it. They could also make it so that this reward is shared across all of your characters in the current league, making it enticing to level new characters after you reach max level. |
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Im gonna be brutally honest here.
Not that it matters, this topic "Remove XP Penalty" has been brought up a million times or more already and nothing changed. So its not like your post is going to achieve anything but wasting time. Which is kinda nice right now since we are all in this "gotta wait for stuff" limbo. Now back to the topic at hand. Removing the "needless frustration" also removes the thrill of getting away just barely. Doesnt matter anymore, nothing is on the line anyways. Building to survive content is irrelevant as long as you can do content within 6 portals and that bar is extremely low. Why would I ever invest into defenses again, if I could instead just nuke 2-3 entire screens and nothing ever touches me? Just add cast on death plus portal when in doubt and you are good to go. Lastly: Alienating casuals is a bad thing? I beg to differ. I am 100% convinced they wont stop being alienated after removing the death penalty. They wont cheer and be happy. Instead they will find the next alienating thing and have that removed too and then the next and the next and so on. Before you know you are playing a casual game. Thats going to be the result, if "alienating casuals" was an argument to begin with. Instead they should be kicked out as early as possible so this one game doesnt degenerate into casuals state just like all the other games out there. The overwhelming majority of games is already targeting casuals. Go play those, leave the few exceptions alone. You arent adding anything, you are taking away for no good reason. Casuals have all the options to choose from, non-casuals have barely anything left. And I can almost predict the answer: The other ARPGs arent as in depth and thus less interesting. Yup - because they are targeting casuals. You cant have a game with a million different mechanics, items, interactions and whatnot AND have casual friendly at the same time. It doesnt work that way. Its either bland and boring aka casual friendly or its not. PoE isnt, deal with it. Last edited by Orbaal on Oct 17, 2021, 9:12:26 AM
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Still +1 to the suggestion. There's a very large base of mid-tier players who would find this helpful, and who won't "find the next alienating thing" etc. People who do want to get involved deeper than your average casual game, but who don't have loads of grinding time to invest. The hardcore (not in the league sense) players will still be loads better and have better loot, as is only fair. I can't see anyone being negatively impacted by this option.
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I was going to respond to the whole thing but I've decided to hit the main points in your post.
" There is a mode called Hardcore where this is on 24/7. If this is what you crave, it is there for you. Unless you only want it sometimes I guess? If that is the case then having an exp penalty for everyone shouldn't be the way to go. Maybe if they add it as a toggle? If that were the case you'd have it off though, wouldn't you? Hence why you don't play Hardcore. " Flat out not true. There is literally nothing else I've seen, apart from random 1 shots and server stability / optimization, which players have been asking for. Here's the thing: there isn't anything else which is alienating. Oh, wait, you could argue that the Atlas being too big is? Would you look at that, GGG themselves are making it easier to complete and are adding a ton more QoL improvements like unveiling all ranks of enchants, less clicking required to get loot, etc. " And once all of the casuals are out then who will be paying GGG their income? If they proceed to remove all casuals and mid-tier players, who will be left to actually support the game? You think that every hardcore player buys every supporter pack? You think that the hardcore players care for visuals more than gameplay? Of course it's the more casual playerbase which is raking in the money, not the top 1%. Not to mention that if it happens, GGG would either have to shut down servers, change the schedule of leagues to do cost increasing or aggressively monetize the game. If you want an example of why alienating casual players is a bad thing, look at Wildstar - a literally dead game which was made for those hardcore players and only with hardcore players in mind. " This is factually incorrect. We are taking away the exp penalty on death for a very good reason - incentivize players to push further. We are adding something - a clear goal for players to strive for, both casual, mid-tier and hardcore. Again, if you truly believe that building pure damage will become the meta then you're sorely mistaken. A great example for this is D3 - to push in greater rifts, you go for the build which adds the most survivability and damage, not only damage. This is a game where deaths do not reduce your exp and you aren't punished almost at all for dying in a greater rift (you only lose on upgrading your gems in the end). Don't believe me? Please go on the ladder and check the highest greater rifts completed or go to any site which recommends builds, you will quickly realize just how many different DR effects a character in D3 runs and has cubed. " You really need to learn the difference between the skill floor and the skill ceiling in a game. Just because a game is casual friendly doesn't mean it's not hardcore friendly either. Take WoW as an example - you can literally run around and pick up herbs, do pet battles or play the AH if you want, or you could push for +25 keys or do Mythic raiding. Is the game ruined because of it? No, it's because of a certain lawsuit which Blizzard is facing atm and because the devs are actually trying to appease the more hardcore playerbase by giving them more tedious tasks which do nothing to enhance the gameplay and are literally chores (dailies are the exact opposite of hardcore yet if you want to be a top-end raider you bet your ass you're gonna go get that Archivist Codex rep to tier 6). Or you should look at a game like Hades - it is a game which is extremely casual friendly yet it is considered one of the best hack & slash games and was awarded with 9 game of the year awards. 9. Not only that, the difference between what the casual players do (low heat) and what hardcore players do (32+ heat, some pushing for even higher) is mindbogglingly shocking. Just because the game is casual friendly doesn't mean it is not made with hardcore players in mind. Hell, you could argue that the hardcore players have so much more to do in it than the casual playerbase. With all of this being said, I still don't understand how this particular change will affect you in any way, shape or form. If you crave the constant adrenaline while playing, then play Hardcore. If you want it only sometimes and the only thing keeping you playing PoE is the fact that if you die you will lose exp, well, I don't know my guy / gal / non-binary friend. This is only one change. It isn't something only casual players have asked for. I am the exact opposite of that and I have made this entire post. I play characters which specialize in defense and who are close to immortal and even I believe that players should have more freedom in their builds. GGG are literally nerfing defense stacking in 3.16, a lot, because they want players to not focus only on block and evasion. This is happening literally in the next patch so it seems like they're on the same page as me when it comes to this. All in all, I would love to hone in on more of your points but at this point it feels like your stance is "casual = bad" and that nothing will change your mind about that. Last edited by Pow3rFr34K on Oct 17, 2021, 4:13:01 PM
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" Really? Where have you been the past two or three years? Every single day someone is complaining about something in the name of casuals or poor players or midtier players on this very forum or other social media platforms. Just a brief list in no specific order w/o even thinking about it: - Death Penalty - Crafting - Access to toptier content - Boss mechanics - Timed Events - Influenced mods / Elevated mods - Grind in general - Nerfs - everything to do with 3.15 - Harvest I could go on bit this should suffice for now. Its always phrased the same way. "Casuals are hurting, fix this or else" - usually combined with the thinly veiled thread that GGG will go bankrupt if they dont do it. Some went even as far as saying GGG has "Declared war on casuals" - somehow. So please spare me the long winded explanations as to why this all different this time around. Its not. Its the same as always. You sign up for a game and accept the rules. Point blank period. You dont get to join a game and demand changes suiting your playstyle but killing others as byproduct and then faint surprise if you get called out for it. Im sick and tired of people complaining about anything on behalf of others and claiming they were somehow representing a majority and know better than everyone else. Last edited by Orbaal on Oct 17, 2021, 4:19:24 PM
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who are you representing then? a casual? a midtier core gamer or hardcore gamer?
the 1%? he listed many good arguments and i do agree with some of them you dont understand that people are frustrated about this mechanic me including and i had several leagues with 36/40 and my highest character is lvl 98 and with all those death penalty threads which some are silly and just desperate i can say that no one is trying to take anything from you there also was a suggestion to make another seperate "different" penalizing league what were the arguments against it? "those filthy casuals ggg has to pay extra servers for them" so all i can read from your comments is if you dont like this certain mechanic just dont play it so why am i playing all the other games like the binding of izaac if i dont like 1 mechanic? maybe because the overall game is very good? people here including me have been supporters since closed beta and i think we have a right to complain even if its one single thing we dont like. 3.15 was one of the leagues i really didnt care about leveling up past 94 since i knew if i do invest more into survivability i lose dmg and therefor i cant run juicy content therefor it takes much longer to kill something and enduring bossfights turn out to be to dangerous (maven for example) people have to tune down their experience with the game because they dont want to die right? well you also know that there are timed events (alva) and some others where you need to kill fast so people going to build fast and squishy builds otherwise what are these contents even there for if i have to skip them? or are they only in the game for the 1%??? poe does "NOT" reward slow gameplay so what do you want us to do? complain about how unrewarding the game is for slower players? of course we want to go "zoom zoom" and get as much rewards as possible. so the people who dont like the penalty they have to bite into the sour apple (german Saying) and deal with the frustration until they leave because of it. plot twist at this point as chris said no one is complaining about any penalties ... "There are Penalties in the Game, no one's complaining about them"
Chris Wilson Exilecon 2019 |
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Maybe clarify in your original post the 2 nodes that unlock at level 95 and 100. For example:
- Reaching level 95 and 100 will unlock 2 configurable Passive Skill Tree nodes. - These nodes are unlocked account wide and any character can immediately use them regardless of Character Level/gameplay progression. - They can be configured differently per character. Computer specifications:
Windows 10 Pro x64 | AMD Ryzen 5800X3D | ASUS Crosshair VIII Hero (WiFi) Motherboard | 16GB 3600MHz RAM | MSI Geforce 1070Ti Gamer | Corsair AX 760watt PSU | Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD & WD Black FZEX HDD |
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" Im representing no one but myself. If you wanted to know where I find myself within the PoE community, I honestly dont know and also dont care. Probably in the top 10-20% in SC and bottom 10-20% in HC? Who cares and why would it matter? Im playing the exact same game as everyone else does. I did quit leagues early I didnt enjoy plenty times but never threw a tantrum because of that. My opinion and my preferred playstyle are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I do realise GGG needs to cater all kinds of different types of players and so sometimes a league just isnt for me. Thats ok, Ill play something else and come back later. The paragraph above is precisely why statements like "Its a game and supposed to be fun" are laughable. There are dozens of different definitions of fun. Which one prevails? The answer is: None. Dont like it, dont play it. Simple. And yeah Ive been frustrated with the game as well many times. Still I never called let alone demanded or petitioned for fundamental changes. The people doing this kind of stuff fail to realise that there are so many other playstyles out there and that their own definition of fun or whatever isnt paramount. You are not the center of the universe, life doesnt owe you shit. They are also ignoring the fact, that any changes to their liking will make the game worse for many other players or they do realise and dont care. This behaviour is so selfish and self-centered, its kinda sad really. The two main reasons why Im not participating in this kind of behavior and speak up against it is this: I want GGG to put forward the best version of the game they can come up with rather than being forced to work on something they dont believe in and simply do for money. There are enough soulless empty shells of a videogame out there, why push this one to become like that? I want the devs to be passionate about their own game, because thats what makes this game great. You can feel the passion - even if the devs are missing the mark. Second reason is that every single league all content is being cleared in HCSSF. Im not good enough to pull that off. But it shows that this game doesnt need to be easier, especially not in SC trade leagues. This is already easymode. All tools needed to prevent death and beat all content are available but instead of either adjusting your playstyle and improve yourself or adjusting your expectations accordingly if you dont want to improve, you choose the easy way and demand free stuff. And not only that, these people are hiding behind others by pretending they were representing a large group and were somehow qualified or authorized to speak on those players behalf. Thats despicable at best and I wont accept watering down the game for players who refuse to step up their game or wont accept the consequences of refusing to do so. Im genuinely trying to help out players but the reality is this: They dont want to be helped, they wont accept any advise. All they want is venting, throwing a tantrum and demand the game to be changed to their liking. If that sort of behaviour goes unchecked and prevails, everything goes to shit and I for one wont have it. The reason why this game is great is because it doesnt hand over everything there is on a silver plattern. You do actually have to work for it and thats why it feels great when you finally get there. Thats why players who quit every single leagues while thrwowing tantrums come back every single time. There is no need to change anything because of them. They´ll go nowhere. They´ll come back and play the game again, trying to achieve what they couldnt achieve before and thats why you dont just give them what they want. This game thrives on unfulfilled wants and needs. It feeds directly into the core gameloop and this should never be touched. | |
" To put it simply, the roots of PoE are tied into the founders love of older ARGPs. "Aspirational content" is a core part of PoEs design. They want an environment where there are things that are either so extremely rare or are so challenging that very few people will have or accomplish them. It creates a sense of excitement when you finally hit the jackpot, or pride for finally overcoming those challenges. It differentiates the game from the industry standard of requiring max level before engaging with endgame content. Instead we start maps around 68 and everything maxes out at 86. TLDR: They liked high levels being something that was rare and "cool" like being 99 on ladder in D2. On limiting levels by map tier, the amount of grind is already strongly correlated to the highest tier of maps you can complete safely. If you're level 99 pushing to 100, running a T10 map is only giving you 2.5% of normal experience. The current system gives players the option of how to tackle the grind. If you hard limit it by monster level/area tier. Most people aren't going to run T16 maps for the purpose of leveling, if they want to reach 100 they're still going to grind currency to buy Pure Chayula Breachstones and Legion Emblems for 5-ways because its much easier and faster to level that way. Yes it is a mindless grind, and having done it, not really worth it in my opinion. But I understand the value for people who want to work towards something that takes some conscious effort. I still think addressing random deaths is the appropriate way to make the death penalty feel less punishing. If people have control of the level of challenge they take on, they can make smart decisions and be rewarded for it. Losing progress to getting offscreened by an obscene combinations of mods and auras, overtuned attacks, dying to corpse explosions, or because you couldn't see what to dodge through all the particle effects flying around. Those are the true source of frustration. And it would have the added benefit of making Hardcore a much more accessible and enjoyable experience for people. | |
" This is a solution which isn't feasible. This requires GGG to work on so many of the game's fundamentals in particle effects, reworking how auras work, reworking corpse explosions, ensuring certain combinations of mods will not appear together (you could still see 2 or 3 different packs which make a combination of those mods so good luck figuring that out), making sure there are 0 ways for you to get off-screened (again, not feasible due to the amount of things they'll need to work out), etc. " Fair point, however, with limiting the exp gained to high tier content, this actually becomes the norm, doesn't it? The way I see it, currently you can mindlessly grind to 100 by doing safe maps, eliminating any prestige tied to reaching max level. You even said it yourself: " You then follow it up saying: " I still fail to understand how removing the death penalty and ensuring the only way for people to reach max level is to either do T16 maps or to do the Pure Chayula Breachstones and Legion Emblems for 5-ways which is the current best way to level to 100. Hitting 100 will still be a conscious effort which will, arguably, require a lot more dedication, except you literally remove the frustration for everyone below that. By limiting the exp gained to certain tiers you ensure not everyone will be max level or even 97-98 unless they want to hit it. Just because you remove the penalty doesn't mean magically everyone will start hitting those high levels, it means the frustration with dying is gone. That's what this is all about - the frustration dying brings. I am 100% certain nobody who dies to any of the ways you mentioned is going to go "man, I sure am happy I lost 10% exp just because of an off-screen death". TL:DR - proposed changes don't make it necessarily easier to hit 100. You will need to either do T16 maps and above or do the existing best ways of buying Pure Chayula Breachstones and Legion Emblems for 5-ways. What it does is remove frustration when dying. I would argue it is so much easier to implement than your proposed changes which are, and I quote: " |
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