Divine Shield and Ghost Dance suggestion to make it more hybrid

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Sadaukar wrote:

so u really want to tell me, that 40k evasion or 30k armour are worse than investing heavily in aura notes, just to get grace or determination that most likely don't give me the same stats + I lose potential damage?

Like I said, there might be a mastery that changes something, but I still don't believe it will be enough to justify the investment for ME.

If u think that's bold, to decide for myself... well so be it.

Also keep in mind that those masteries aren't free. They cost skillpoints aswell, that u have to sacrifice from other stuff.

What fraking 40k evasion and 30k armour, the example i gave is STRICTLY related to ES build going into some armour investement for new divine shield. How in the world did you think some random build you had in mind is relevant to this specific examples... ./facepalm.

well u wrote cold dot character with 11k ES.

That's exactly what I built, going into eva and armour just to see how it plans out with the current skill tree.
I've got 11k es and 40k eva or 30k armour out of it, without sacrificing anything for fiddling in Auras.

Hence why I wrote a reply to ur consideration of getting determination... I just think it's not worth it.

Anyway, maybe I caught u on the wrong foot?

Have a good one ;)

1) If you have 40k EV or 30k AR and sacrifice a bit of that to get 0.5-1k ES -> you'll get a lot of survivability from these Keystones.
2) If you have 12k ES you'll need to sacrifice ~3k of that + 50% reservation, so have at least i.e. 9k ES and 14k AR (so map mods won't hurt your ES) -> you still get 2x times less bonus survivability.

Situation 2 is much closer to the "hybrid" defences (both values are medium-high), but is punished much more than Situation 1 with less gain.

So the Keystones are designed not for hybrids (when all your items have combined defences), but for regular AR/EV builds to give them ~+1k almost free HP (and stun avoidance).

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Sadaukar wrote:

well u wrote cold dot character with 11k ES.

That's exactly what I built, going into eva and armour just to see how it plans out with the current skill tree.
I've got 11k es and 40k eva or 30k armour out of it, without sacrificing anything for fiddling in Auras.

Hence why I wrote a reply to ur consideration of getting determination... I just think it's not worth it.

Anyway, maybe I caught u on the wrong foot?

Have a good one ;)

So you got an 11k es build with 40k ev and 30k armour?

First of I call bull on it.
Second of of all the entire discussion was about how this new notable not worth it for ES builds, If can get 30 k armour on it already, you don't need the aura to take this node do you.... ./facepalm

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VS_Revan wrote:

1) If you have 40k EV or 30k AR and sacrifice a bit of that to get 0.5-1k ES -> you'll get a lot of survivability from these Keystones.
2) If you have 12k ES you'll need to sacrifice ~3k of that + 50% reservation, so have at least i.e. 9k ES and 14k AR (so map mods won't hurt your ES) -> you still get 2x times less bonus survivability.

Situation 2 is much closer to the "hybrid" defences (both values are medium-high), but is punished much more than Situation 1 with less gain.

So the Keystones are designed not for hybrids (when all your items have combined defences), but for regular AR/EV builds to give them ~+1k almost free HP (and stun avoidance).

You do know you took numbers out our arse to prove your point right? The specific example i gave was losing 700 es and 50% aura. The for first example the loss became a magic "a bit". And then you just magically compared them without looking any actually relevant values or EHP, max damage taken etc, just by sheer power of your mind i guess. Not to mentioned you magically forgot 20% fortify that you gain but hey who is counting.

Now keep in mind this was my napkin math at best and by no means proves that node is good for ES builds, this was just an option of how it makes sense to use it and might be viable. The only key point there is that you can't dismiss it as useless for hybrid es(high)/armour builds.

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Deathfairy wrote:

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Sadaukar wrote:

well u wrote cold dot character with 11k ES.

That's exactly what I built, going into eva and armour just to see how it plans out with the current skill tree.
I've got 11k es and 40k eva or 30k armour out of it, without sacrificing anything for fiddling in Auras.

Hence why I wrote a reply to ur consideration of getting determination... I just think it's not worth it.

Anyway, maybe I caught u on the wrong foot?

Have a good one ;)

So you got an 11k es build with 40k ev and 30k armour?

First of I call bull on it.
Second of of all the entire discussion was about how this new notable not worth it for ES builds, If can get 30 k armour on it already, you don't need the aura to take this node do you.... ./facepalm

last thing I'm going to write here, because u have a really aggressive attitude.

Try to at least read what I wrote before u call anything bs. the PoBs are also available in the forum.

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You do know you took numbers out our arse to prove your point right? The specific example i gave was losing 700 es and 50% aura. The for first example the loss became a magic "a bit".

You didn't count in map-mods, so you really need 30% more armor, but even if you have 10.3k ES and 11.5k armor it changes nothing - it still sucks for Situation 2.

It's just a simple comparing of usefulness:
1) You have a lot of EV and a bit of ES:
40k EV -> 3% = 1200 replenished after hit (3 times = 3600 bonus HP) if you have 1200 ES.
2) You have a lot of ES and a bit of EV:
10k EV -> 3% = 300 replenished after hit (3 times = 900 bonus HP) - it won't even worth ES you've lost to get 10k EV (and you have to have EV at least as much as ES).

So it's now:
"Move EV/AR you have - keystones more rewarding. More ES you have - keystones more punishing."
Should be:
"More EV/AR and ES you have - keystones more rewarding. Bigger difference - keystones more punishing."

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Sadaukar wrote:

last thing I'm going to write here, because u have a really aggressive attitude.

Try to at least read what I wrote before u call anything bs. the PoBs are also available in the forum.

Bye bye.

"I've got 11k es and 40k eva or 30k armour out of it" sure thing. It is only 10x tankier then every single es build currently (outside aurastackers obviously) but they all just dumb could not come up with your build.

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VS_Revan wrote:

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You do know you took numbers out our arse to prove your point right? The specific example i gave was losing 700 es and 50% aura. The for first example the loss became a magic "a bit".

You didn't count in map-mods, so you really need 30% more armor, but even if you have 10.3k ES and 11.5k armor it changes nothing - it still sucks for Situation 2.

It's just a simple comparing of usefulness:
1) You have a lot of EV and a bit of ES:
40k EV -> 3% = 1200 replenished after hit (3 times = 3600 bonus HP) if you have 1200 ES.
2) You have a lot of ES and a bit of EV:
10k EV -> 3% = 300 replenished after hit (3 times = 900 bonus HP) - it won't even worth ES you've lost to get 10k EV (and you have to have EV at least as much as ES).

So it's now:
"Move EV/AR you have - keystones more rewarding. More ES you have - keystones more punishing."
Should be:
"More EV/AR and ES you have - keystones more rewarding. Bigger difference - keystones more punishing."

Why do i need to count map mods again? me confused? Do i need curse immunity to run maps too or i can just you know.. reroll the map?

That said yet again, i am in no way saying it is better then armour/ev builds with some es investment like 10% es craft for example. The one and only point was it is far from useless.

But yet again you taking numbers out of context. Yes i will lose 700 es, but guess what i also GAINED 10k armour or EV which i didn't have before.

It might very well end up that is much better or even extremely overpowered for armour builds to get a constant 1200 es regen. The specific post i answered and provided example is that it is useless to ES builds, that is not so at least based on current information we have. I am not arguing anything else (outside of the fact the numbers your provide are .. flawed to say the least)

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Altemeus wrote:

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Kanjiedge wrote:

Based on the language used for similar passives and affixes, it probably completely prevents ES recovery above your armor/eva. This would be consistent with their intended use, as well

Ghost Shroud and Divine Shield aren't meant to give free stats to high energy shield characters, they're there to help armor/eva characters who want to squeeze in a modest amount of energy shield to supplement their life pool. That's why they reward you for having more armor or eva

Rewarding or requiring high ES and punishing low ES would make these nodes more suitable for pure ES characters, which is the opposite of their intended purpose

Not sure where it was said the purpose is intended to be weighted against ES characters. The Keystones interact with both mechanics. It'd be one thing if hybrid builds are encouraged elsewhere on the tree favoring ES, but there isn't. ES builds can dabble in Armour/Evasion, but are generally punished for it with bad mitigation, whereas dabbling in ES can be utilized by grabbing basically any source of flat shield regen through Zealot's Oath already. You can't make the same jump with Physical Damage Reduction or Evasion Chance.

The entire passive tree has been revamped, how would you know whether it is or isn't encouraged elsewhere?

They want hybrid characters to use hybrid bases - which they explained in the development manifesto - and what do all hybrid bases have in common? Less ES, more eva/armor.

Pure energy shield characters are already broken as hell and y'all are seriously in here complaining about not being able to abuse this? That's a side, it's a keystone. The entire point of keystones is and always has been to get a powerful benefit in exchange for a powerful drawback. Free shield restoration isn't going to just be given away to ES builds because you don't want to build any mitigation stats