Some things that could be learned from D2R

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Onecardtoomany wrote:

Since it’s release I have been playing D2R for a few days after playing 3.15 for a few weeks and actually enjoying it.

I know there has been a lot of criticism of POE following 3.15 and I would really encourage people who have complained about it to give D2R a go, as for me at least it really provides a great perspective on things POE does well.

POE is smoother, much better user interface, more content and more stable. I know people have complained about too much clicking in POE but I have to stop D2R after a few days due to “mouse hand pain”. I say this as I just want to be clear that there are many things that I think POE does so well. FYI I did jump onto my old D2 account for an end game experience with insane gear on my old Enigma hammerdin so I am not just talking about early game.

That being said I do think there are some clear lessons for GGG to learn and I think I can see where Chris Wilson’s vision comes from now.

The first is loot. The loot in D2R feels like it means something. There is an excitement about getting a drop or a rune. This for me is because POE feels overwhelming in loot, there is so much it is impossible to care due to sensory overload. I genuinely think that dropping the volume of meaningless loot would help. For example reduce rates by an order of magnitude but eliminate tiers below 4. There would still be chase but rares would be rare but at least usable.

D2R does monster interaction well. I think this is because monsters generally do not one shot. They do offers no but you can react. Reduced monster damage and increased monster life may help. For me personally one shots are the key that kill interaction and need to be removed outside of bosses telegraphed attacks or structured fights.

Visual clarity - less is sometimes more! Knowing what is going really increases engagement.

Finally, target farming. D2R does target farming well. Either Baal runs or countess farming. You can still have world drops but a significantly higher chance (even if it is still insanely low) gives a sense of focus. For me it is this sense of focus that is missing in POE. I know it exists with div cards etc, however, I think it gets lost in the noise of everything else.

Just my thoughts and I am sure people will disagree, however, I am genuinely pleased that D2R was able to give me a new sense of perspective and I hope GGG have also used the old kid back on the block to influence the next league

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jewdas12 wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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jewdas12 wrote:

Now consider what making trade automatic would do to the value of loot

Oh cmon PoE doeant have automatic trade either, and It's a terrible system as well.

And are you really going to say that loot is better in PoE? It's a shitshow. 99.9% of gear drops are worthless, even with loot filters.

Hell there is now a non-render option because the game is littered with shit everywhere.

did you even read and understand what i wrote?

Let me make is easier to understand. Loot in poe is worse because its so easy to trade for better, in d2 it is not, because trade is beyond terrible

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jewdas12 wrote:

Loot in d2 feels better because trade is incredibly cumbersome

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Which I think isnt true. If PoE removed trade, or if we look at SSF, PoE loot still sucks. It's not trade.

In D2R the loot itself is consequential. The uniques, sets, and runewords are build enablers.

In PoE trade league you mostly just hope currency drops to pay no-life crafters for gear you would never find yourself.

That feels fuckin bad.

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jewdas12 wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Which I think isnt true. If PoE removed trade, or if we look at SSF, PoE loot still sucks. It's not trade.

In D2R the loot itself is consequential. The uniques, sets, and runewords are build enablers.

In PoE trade league you mostly just hope currency drops to pay no-life crafters for gear you would never find yourself.

That feels fuckin bad.

now, if trade didnt exist, or was d2 tier, those crafted items literally wouldnt exist, at all, since they can only exist due to trade being as easy as it is. thus your perception of what "good gear" is wouldnt be entirely skewed by what the poe trade economy can offer.

if you forget everything about what good items are, that you have learned from the poe trade economy, you will definitely find good items in ssf. and you will find them far more often than you find good items (actually useful items, not something you can liquidate into chaos or exalts), and that is because you arent competing with 10000 other players on trade when valuing your items.

a vast number of valuable uniques in d2 would be trash tier 1c uniques with similar accessablity to trade as in poe.

trade is one of the major components in why drops dont feel very exciting , and if you cant see that i dont know what to tell you

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Shagsbeard wrote:

GGG needs to make the difference between high end and "good enough" a whole lot closer together. The reason players aren't excited about "good enough" is that you can do so much better at the high end. It's not just a little better. It's 10x or more better. That's the problem.

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jewdas12 wrote:

There is one thing that always seems overlooked when it comes to loot in d2 vs poe, and maybe it is because people cant, or dont want to, put 2 and 2 together. Loot in d2 feels better because trade is incredibly cumbersome. Even if you are a jsp user its not even close. You cant just liquidate everything worth a pul rune without putting a lot of effort into it, so trading is restricted to very high end stuff, and you dont engage with it nearly as much as in poe (due to the severe limitations). Meanwhile in poe you constantly seek to liquidate every valuable drop you find that you arent gonna use yourself, and it is frankly quite easy despite what the AH crowd says

Just consider something like a rare ring, you are very likely to only find the rings you use yourself, because the exact ring you want is gonna be impossibly hard to find unless you are looking at the extreme top end stuff for pvp, where as in poe you can browse thousands of rare rings generated by the tens of thousands of players grinding and liquidating their drops. Of course its gonna be near impossible to drop a better ring than what you can easily pick up for 10c.

This is also very noticable if you do decide to play ssf. Suddenly upgrades are dropping left and right, and you can have a steady progression from drops into the very very late game.

Now consider what making trade automatic would do to the value of loot

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DarthSki44 wrote:

^ well it looks like you agreed on most of his points which makes the majority of your post curious.

Secondly PoE UI isnt "stellar". Its acceptable at best.

And lastly on target farming / repeated play. For me, PoE does exactly the same thing but disguises it pretty well. Is doing a handful of maps like Atoll over and over again really better than a Baal or Diablo run? Delve and Heist isnt the same shit over and over?

And maybe you are not doing it right in D2R. You can do Meph, Pindle, Andy, Baal, Diablo, River and Chaos Sanc runs, Worldstone Runs, Countess, 85 Ilvl runs like Pits, AT, etc...

I cannot tell you how much different it feels knowing that while running Ancient Tunnels, any champion skeleton could drop a Tals Armor vs. Running a map in PoE hoping an exalt drops so you can buy something from a no-life crafter.

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And maybe you are not doing it right in D2R. You can do Meph, Pindle, Andy, Baal, Diablo, River and Chaos Sanc runs, Worldstone Runs, Countess, 85 Ilvl runs like Pits, AT, etc...

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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jewdas12 wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Which I think isnt true. If PoE removed trade, or if we look at SSF, PoE loot still sucks. It's not trade.

In D2R the loot itself is consequential. The uniques, sets, and runewords are build enablers.

In PoE trade league you mostly just hope currency drops to pay no-life crafters for gear you would never find yourself.

That feels fuckin bad.

now, if trade didnt exist, or was d2 tier, those crafted items literally wouldnt exist, at all, since they can only exist due to trade being as easy as it is. thus your perception of what "good gear" is wouldnt be entirely skewed by what the poe trade economy can offer.

if you forget everything about what good items are, that you have learned from the poe trade economy, you will definitely find good items in ssf. and you will find them far more often than you find good items (actually useful items, not something you can liquidate into chaos or exalts), and that is because you arent competing with 10000 other players on trade when valuing your items.

a vast number of valuable uniques in d2 would be trash tier 1c uniques with similar accessablity to trade as in poe.

trade is one of the major components in why drops dont feel very exciting , and if you cant see that i dont know what to tell you

You dont have to tell me anything. We just disagree. I dont think trade is the source of the loot problem in PoE. (And the evidence is in SSF play)

So yea, agree to disagree on our opinions on the state of loot, and why.

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jewdas12 wrote:

Loot in poe is worse because its so easy to trade for better, in d2 it is not, because trade is beyond terrible