3.16 was GGG's biggest debacle. Giving them one more league to right the ship.

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trixxar wrote:

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yoritomo_aleta wrote:

I came back to play because of the nerfs. The game was boring before. I'm mildly irritated they rolled back the nerfs they did. We would have found a way to play and it would have been fun doing so. Instead players who hate any challenge threw their toys out of the pram. I understand that many aspects of the game are boring to ye because you've repeated yourselves so many times, but I don't think the answer is to ruin the game to keep bored players around deep into their diminished returns from the game.

And bottom line is whilst the numbers at the start of league are down (way down), the numbers at the end of the league are up. Not enough, but the picture is more nuanced than several bad actors are presenting them as.

I mean, honest questions

1) - The game was 'too easy' for you, but your top character across any league only has a 5 link chest, dont appear to have beaten any hard content, but the game was too easy? Can you explain? It appears to an outside observer you dont tackle the hard parts of the game, but then want it to be harder for everyone.

2) - The numbers are up? What numbers? What exact player count and what is your source? The actual data posted above you disagrees with your analysis. Feel free to counter with, you know, data.

I kind of understand where he is coming from though. It was quite interesting and fun getting weird builds to work this league as a challenge especially when everything got nuked.

That said I do miss some archetypes that got gutted like ignite.

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HamsterTrainer wrote:

That said I do miss some archetypes that got gutted like ignite.

You can even still make ignite work, you know.

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sbowen223 wrote:

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HamsterTrainer wrote:

That said I do miss some archetypes that got gutted like ignite.

You can even still make ignite work, you know.

Absolutely but the diversity got gutted. I think the only ones that work and can take down the feared now are BA, Discharge, and Maw.

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HamsterTrainer wrote:

Absolutely but the diversity got gutted. I think the only ones that work and can take down the feared now are BA, Discharge, and Maw.

Seems like a bit of an arbitrary checkpoint, especially when the game doesn't even encourage you to repeat kills on that encounter. Sirus, one could argue is a more valid check in that regard (at various awakener levels). But I think there are a variety of definitions that can apply as to whether a build can or cannot work. 100% Deli is one. 20-60% Deli is another. Clearing 90% of a map in under 2 minutes is good. Being able to basically ignore what Remnants you're hitting in Expedition and still stomp it easily (excluding one or two hard no's).

Personally, I have doubts my build can do the Feared, but it can easily do everything else mentioned above, so that works for me.

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sbowen223 wrote:

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HamsterTrainer wrote:

Absolutely but the diversity got gutted. I think the only ones that work and can take down the feared now are BA, Discharge, and Maw.

Seems like a bit of an arbitrary checkpoint, especially when the game doesn't even encourage you to repeat kills on that encounter. Sirus, one could argue is a more valid check in that regard (at various awakener levels). But I think there are a variety of definitions that can apply as to whether a build can or cannot work. 100% Deli is one. 20-60% Deli is another. Clearing 90% of a map in under 2 minutes is good. Being able to basically ignore what Remnants you're hitting in Expedition and still stomp it easily (excluding one or two hard no's).

Personally, I have doubts my build can do the Feared, but it can easily do everything else mentioned above, so that works for me.

Fair enough, for me I just need to have those 10 atlas points without knowing I need another build or a carry to get them.

The invitation is still another nice freebie roll on a watcher's eye and the bottled faith. Not to mention the 5-10 maven splinters.

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HamsterTrainer wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

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yoritomo_aleta wrote:

I came back to play because of the nerfs. The game was boring before. I'm mildly irritated they rolled back the nerfs they did. We would have found a way to play and it would have been fun doing so. Instead players who hate any challenge threw their toys out of the pram. I understand that many aspects of the game are boring to ye because you've repeated yourselves so many times, but I don't think the answer is to ruin the game to keep bored players around deep into their diminished returns from the game.

And bottom line is whilst the numbers at the start of league are down (way down), the numbers at the end of the league are up. Not enough, but the picture is more nuanced than several bad actors are presenting them as.

I mean, honest questions

1) - The game was 'too easy' for you, but your top character across any league only has a 5 link chest, dont appear to have beaten any hard content, but the game was too easy? Can you explain? It appears to an outside observer you dont tackle the hard parts of the game, but then want it to be harder for everyone.

2) - The numbers are up? What numbers? What exact player count and what is your source? The actual data posted above you disagrees with your analysis. Feel free to counter with, you know, data.

I kind of understand where he is coming from though. It was quite interesting and fun getting weird builds to work this league as a challenge especially when everything got nuked.

That said I do miss some archetypes that got gutted like ignite.

The main limit on my play in leagues I have played is RSI in my hand. I play until it starts to get sore, and then I go play less damaging games.

Why do I think the game is boring? I made a big list of things, but the essence of most of them was that it is too fast. DPS is waaaaaay too high and survivability from non-DPS focused strategies is too low. When the answer is almost always more DPS that's boring. Offense being the best defense is almost always the sign of a bad meta. The 6 link support gem stacking gameplay is yawn inducing, there should be diminishing returns rather than accelerating returns.

Essentially despite it's apparent complexity, the game the way a lot of people play it is incredibly simple. Get someone else to design your build, play for currency to buy your build, complain if there's any challenge.

Flask nerfs, support gem nerfs and movement skill nerfs were high on my list of things that the game needed to make it better. And I have enjoyed this league more than any previous league. I have really enjoyed the discussion around the game this league and I've enjoyed the gameplay more this league than ever before. I have mostly enjoyed experimenting with my own build (though based on a fairly standard flame build), solving mana issues etc.

I do think that nerfs have to be paired up with adjusting other parts of the game at the same time. I'd like to see movement skills nerfed even more, but then they need to remove timers and give better defense options, but ones that trade off DPS fairly aggressively.

Building your character yourself is interesting, gear acquisition when you can't trade is interesting, but the actual mapping gameplay is too zero/one, it's either trivial or you get killed from off screen).

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ZionHalcyon wrote:

unless I somehow grind out 50 ex or more to be able to afford the equipment needed to do the harder content, which for a no life player may take a week but for a casual player may take the entire league if they're even lucky enough

what, casual players accumulate nowhere near 50 ex per league.

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dachoppa wrote:

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ZionHalcyon wrote:

unless I somehow grind out 50 ex or more to be able to afford the equipment needed to do the harder content, which for a no life player may take a week but for a casual player may take the entire league if they're even lucky enough

what, casual players accumulate nowhere near 50 ex per league.

Like so many times before, it depends on your definition. Casual in my mind is not so much about how progressed a player gets, but how many total hours of playtime they’re doing. When I think casual I still envision someone doing red maps, albeit not playing every day and probably only 1-3 hours on days they do actually play. Such a person can EASILY farm 50 exalts within a couple weeks of that.

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trixxar wrote:

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yoritomo_aleta wrote:

The idea that you think you're the majority opinion just baffles me.

Steam charts.

If you disagree with me, provide better data. But, obviously you cant.

Yeah. Steam numbers had a hard cutoff the first week in comparison to other leagues in the last two years.

But i'm personally only concerned if POE steam numbers are as low or lower than Grim Dawn, the next most playeed Arpg.

This could send a signal but i dont think POE concurrent players (current spike around 16k) will fall down to 6k players in the next 2-3 weeks when the announcement happens and players come back to prepare for new league.

I'm only concerned if the steam numbers we see now, becomes a trend over several leagues. One bad league? We've had that before.