Because of arrogance, GGG is running the road to the end

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Vesuvius079 wrote:

So basically you sponged up all the negativity and never actually considered the reality of the situation, which is that the core of the game hasn’t really changed much this patch and the whining is way out of proportion to the actual nerfs.

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TreeOfDead wrote:

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Vesuvius079 wrote:

So basically you sponged up all the negativity and never actually considered the reality of the situation, which is that the core of the game hasn’t really changed much this patch and the whining is way out of proportion to the actual nerfs.

this is not all negativity this has been going on for a few leagues last patch is just a nail in the coffin

Man you are the guy who unlock all crafts every league and you are most of the time online you cannot compare yourself to normal players because you see the situation from a completely different perspective

First of all id like to say that, yes i agree the game isnt as bad as all the whining would lead you to believe.
But: i really do think harvest is still an issue and id rather they remove it completely. Mainly because harvest crafts are tradeable on tft (which contrary to what someone said earlier they DO balance around [see Ziz/mathil Chris Wilson interview]), the reasoning to not make harvest crafted items soulbound also seems quite poor (dont want to say they should do that for sure, but the reasoning was really bad [again see Ziz/Mathil video]).
What people do you think use tft?
Its probably people that would craft really got items without harvest anyway and no casuals at all.
So instead of really removing Harvest power they moved it to tft, practically nerfing it for the casual while the top end player feels way less impact of this (either through using tft or having the knowledge [+time and funds] to craft godly gear anyway).
I personally do not think this is healthy and as i said at this point i would rather see harvest removed.

On another note the Baeclast interview really got my hopes up only to have them pretty much crushed in the Ziz/Mathil one.

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Orbaal wrote:

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Malichus wrote:

This means that I could put in 100 hours in a league but won't have progressed anywhere near as far as someone who plays 4 or 5 times as much did in their first 100 hours. So, I don't expect to get as far in the same time frame, I do expect to come close in the same number of hours. That's where POE fails the casual player.

This has little to do with you being a casual but with efficiency.
Those players are going 3 times as fast than you do and know exactly what they are doing, when to do it and what they wish to get out of it.
hrs a day.
Time invested is a non-factor, knowledge and only knowledge is.

Really?
You do realize that being casual means not (or at least way less) caring about efficiency, if you play as efficient as possible in poe you might be a lot but not a casual.

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the reasoning to not make harvest crafted items soulbound also seems quite poor

Aha... Do you actually have something to contribute here aside from outright calling it poor? Why is it? Because I actually liked the explanation a lot and can totally confirm it from a personal point, as I sometimes level 2-3 builds until I am finally on one that I like to stick with for the rest of the league.

When I do this I:
- craft my own gear
- level my own gems
- spent time buying everything that does not fall unter 1) and 2), therefore
- creating a fully-functioning character that I can sell like that with profit

Last season thats what I did.

- Started on a Trapper, was unhappy, sold the gear piece by piece
- From the money I bought core items for a Dom Blow guardian, crafted other pieces, farmed with it
- unhappy again, was able to sell the whole char for 50ex now
- bought again core pieces for the next build, flicker strike
- crafted again, unhappy again, sold everything for 85ex.

If you start to make items soulbound I would never be able to do that. So why exactly was that a poor argument when in fact it is clearly not?

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Vennto wrote:

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the reasoning to not make harvest crafted items soulbound also seems quite poor

Aha... Do you actually have something to contribute here aside from outright calling it poor? Why is it? Because I actually liked the explanation a lot and can totally confirm it from a personal point, as I sometimes level 2-3 builds until I am finally on one that I like to stick with for the rest of the league.

When I do this I:
- craft my own gear
- level my own gems
- spent time buying everything that does not fall unter 1) and 2), therefore
- creating a fully-functioning character that I can sell like that with profit

Last season thats what I did.

- Started on a Trapper, was unhappy, sold the gear piece by piece
- From the money I bought core items for a Dom Blow guardian, crafted other pieces, farmed with it
- unhappy again, was able to sell the whole char for 50ex now
- bought again core pieces for the next build, flicker strike
- crafted again, unhappy again, sold everything for 85ex.

If you start to make items soulbound I would never be able to do that. So why exactly was that a poor argument when in fact it is clearly not?

Ok so ill repeat the argument: Players would knowingly lose their tiems value to craft it godly with harvest.
Thats a choice there to do it and not trade your item or dont do it.
Why exactly is it a bad thing?
To take Chris own example, he dislikes buying something for his car that he cant resell later, so the best thing would be to not even offer that because it cant be resold?
Sound logic there mate...

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Ok so ill repeat the argument: Players would knowingly lose their tiems value to craft it godly with harvest.
Thats a choice there to do it and not trade your item or dont do it.
Why exactly is it a bad thing?
To take Chris own example, he dislikes buying something for his car that he cant resell later, so the best thing would be to not even offer that because it cant be resold?
Sound logic there mate...

Ah, now I get where you are coming from. Well, if THAT would be your way of approaching it we really could remove harvest entirely. Because right now it might be the strongest way to craft, but it is not anywhere as OP as it was and crafting very powerful endgame stuff takes a lot of time and currency now. There is no reason to soulbound anything with the current harvest anymore, as it is just slightly better than the rest and actually augments other crafting real nice at this point.

Just for the record: I am strictly against soulbound items in general, as crafting with less-effective methods just because casuals don´t want to get their head into it does not solve anything and just disencourages even more people from crafting, leading to even more scarcity on items on the market by the way - if you demolish all the crafting-methods I already see what group is crying the loudest: The casual that now cant even buy items from the market anymore as there arent any crafters that bother to produce items for others.

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Vennto wrote:

Ah, now I get where you are coming from. Well, if THAT would be your way of approaching it we really could remove harvest entirely. Because right now it might be the strongest way to craft, but it is not anywhere as OP as it was and crafting very powerful endgame stuff takes a lot of time and currency now. There is no reason to do that with the current harvest anymore, as it is just slightly better than the rest and actually augments other crafting real nice at this point.

Just for the record: I am strictly against soulbound items in general, as crafting with less-effective methods just because casuals don´t want to get their head into it does not solve anything and just disencourages even more people from crafting.

As i said im not really sure soulbonding items would be the way to go, just that i think the argument Chris made against it was really poor.
Theres some good arguments for and against it.

Ok ill try again:
Yes harvest is still really powerful.
Im not arguing there in any way.
But what i dont get is why you think orginal harvest is unhealthy for the game while the new iteration is ok?
Its just still way more powerful than any other crafting but its now not reasonably accessible for people not spending tons of time on the game (if in actual playtime or in agining the knowledge required to be efficient [or both]).
So what it does as it is now is it increases the power of the top-end players even more while giving the casual player nothing.
And as we already established that you can still trivialize the game quite easily if you know what your are doing, i dont understand why crafting and trivializing content should be even easier for those who do it anyway.

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jersch_ wrote:

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Orbaal wrote:

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Malichus wrote:

This means that I could put in 100 hours in a league but won't have progressed anywhere near as far as someone who plays 4 or 5 times as much did in their first 100 hours. So, I don't expect to get as far in the same time frame, I do expect to come close in the same number of hours. That's where POE fails the casual player.

This has little to do with you being a casual but with efficiency.
Those players are going 3 times as fast than you do and know exactly what they are doing, when to do it and what they wish to get out of it.
hrs a day.
Time invested is a non-factor, knowledge and only knowledge is.

Really?
You do realize that being casual means not (or at least way less) caring about efficiency, if you play as efficient as possible in poe you might be a lot but not a casual.

I was addressing the bolded part.

Whats said there is: I dont expect the same progression within (for arguments sake) 5 days because others do invest more time within those 5 days but I expect roughly the same outcome if both players were investing 100hrs.

This is as outlandish and ridiculios as it gets.
Lets compare it with a real life scenario like this:
Im an untrained couch potato and I except to cover the same distance as a professional runner if the both of us were running for about 10 minutes.
Id be out of breath in like 5 minutes having covered maybe 500 meters if Im lucky whereas the professional runner is still going at full speed and is miles in front of me - yes this is exaggerated to make my point.

The only relevant difference is in PoE its not about physical fitness but knowledge and efficiency, which is why I pointed it out. And yes most casuals dont have those two traits which is why they are lagging behind - as they should.
Otherwise there would be no point in trying to improve, trying to be a better player and thus no reason to keep playing past a certain point.

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But what i dont get is why you think orginal harvest is unhealthy for the game while the new iteration is ok?

I explained my stance on this on the last pages in detail, have a read if you´re interested. In a very short, condensed version: The old harvest replaced every other method of item-production, while the given harvest works in conjunction and augments other methods. Therefore, the old harvest was the single best thing for item-production and economy that you could run in the game, basically reducing player-agency over desired content as nothing was able to hold up while the new harvest is rather a choice to run it and interact with it a lot, without the fear of missing out on tons of currency.

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Its just still way more powerful than any other crafting but its now not reasonably accessible for people not spending tons of time on the game

2 points here:
1. Power and 2. Accessability, lets adress them seperately

Power
As a stand-alone it is not more powerful than any other crafting-method since the changes. 85-90% of the crafts you receive are reforges. While they can prove to be good for different mod-types, the amount of time you need to generate enough of those "weighted rerolls" to actually get something to work with is mostly not worth it. For weighted rolls you are, in most cases, better off with returning to fossils as they can be bought in huge bulk and spamming something like pristine is way more efficient than spamming reforge life with harvest timewise. That ALSO counts for TFT: If you buy reforges, you have to pay 10-15c per try, which is a considerable amount compared to single-reso fossil crafting. I am not saying there might be things where it´s actually worthwhile - could imagine crit for example, as there are no crit-fossils. But in general, those reforges are incredible for the game, because:
- They can be good if you set yourself up for it with a lot of base types
- they also do not hold so much value that you feel bad if you don´t use em
- they are so common that you don´t feel you lose something if you don´t sell them
Thats good for casuals as it is for anyone.

Harvest only becomes (more) powerful if you use it to improve upon items that u generated in other ways. Reforge prefixes/Suffixes, reforges via meta-blocking, augmenting, etc. and I wonder why that´s a problem. Everywhere people ask to get power back in harvest, and now you say that the residual power that is left in it is bad? How about all you critiques meet up and decide what you actually want... Because I don´t get it anymore. Well, maybe its the second point, so lets adress this then.

Acessability
As mentioned above, normal reforges are incredibly common and make up up to 90% of all crafts, so there is no problem getting your hands on those.
Reforge keep pre/suf is actually reasonably common, you can get them from time to time. For reference: I found like 12 of those this league.

So the only thing that is very hard to get your hands on are the augments and the non-x to x crafts. And I can tell you as someone who farms a lot, and farms fast, and does a lot of harvest: I haven´t seen any of those ever since the nerf. They are as elusive as a very valuable drop, so the argument falls flat again because the sheer amount of play-time does not guarantee you that you get your hands on those, and not at all in a reasonable amount that is needed for crafting. So, is that where your problem lies? That you want those crafts to be widely available for everyone? Well, then we are back at the old harvest where everyone can print his 6x T1 items and we are back at the base problem that it is too strong.
There is no difference in accessability right now, apart from the usage of TFT and the basic level of time invested. And I am very sorry to inform you that I wholeheartly believe that people that invest time to build up knowledge, that actually want to play effective and therefore use TFT should be rewarded with better results than someone casually logging on for 2 hours on the weekend. I honestly don´t get why TFT is such a burden.

Most people use
- the trade sides
- PoB Community Fork
- Probably some currency tracker like excellence
- Youtube Guides
- PoeDB? (maybe not the casuals)
- The wiki

is is SO DIFFICULT, to just add one more application to sell something for 6ex if you are so lucky to find it? I mean... cmon. And I don´t want to say that I feel its great that you have all those sources outside rather than inside the game. I just think the hypocricy of using all that and then raging about TFT is ridiculous.

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So what it does as it is now is it increases the power of the top-end players even more while giving the casual player nothing.

That argument is really poor because its firstly wrong and secondly a meaningless tautology. Firstly, because "it gives nothing?" How about you start to use the crafts then. You first say harvest is way more powerful than anything else, and then you say "people get nothing". Which is it then, decide please. All the crafts are available to everyone when entering the grove. Change delirium orbs, change breach splinters, upgrade/split scarabs, upgrade/change essences... all of those can be useful in terms of currency, and as stated above reforge keep pre/suf are available even when you don´t play that much as well. And this is ignoring all the classic reforges that COULD be used as well if people want to. How is that "nothing"?

Secondly, top-End-players will ALWAYS use EVERYTHING in the game to a higher effect than the casual. Again, we come back to my belief that this is correct, because why else would you ever want to try to get better in a game if there is nothing to be gained from it? That´s why I don´t play stuff like diablo 3, where u literally can bash your head against the keyboard and kill stuff without any knowledge needed whatsoever. Asking that to change is asking for time and effort to be meaningless. If you want that, then we will never agree on anything.

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Orbaal wrote:

The only relevant difference is in PoE its not about physical fitness but knowledge and efficiency, which is why I pointed it out. And yes most casuals dont have those two traits which is why they are lagging behind - as they should.
Otherwise there would be no point in trying to improve, trying to be a better player and thus no reason to keep playing past a certain point.

Thanks, literally my point as well!