Should PoE still be advertised for its variety in abilities and options?

Hear me out.

I've been playing this game for many, many years. I've seen many builds come and go, and played a ton of builds myself.

Since beta, the game drastically changed. New acts, new endgame, new abilities and visials. For some, this was desirable; more things to do and try out, right?

However...

The game itself feels like it devolved. Back in the old days, every build was capable of clearing the game content (I'm talking 3 acts, 3 difficulties). Lightning strike, Reave, Spark - you name it.

Now, there's a ton more variability, but at the same time - only the most tryhard meta builds are able to complete all the content that's available in a timely manner. You either kill stuff fast, or it will eventually kill you.

This is, of course, not players' fault - it's the flawed game design, constantly becoming more and more powercrept. Bosses getting higher resists and more life, map mods becoming stupidly over-saturated with higher percentages to negative stats - you name it.

Sadly, I don't see this ever changing - it will progressively get worse.

Is it fun to try a concept you came up with only to hit a brick wall at the endgame? Perhaps. But is it fun to see the same meta builds over and over again, league after league, with barely any variety? Not for me. Technically it should not matter what others play, but there is a reason why everyone plays the same builds.

There may be hundreds of gems and supports available to be picked from, but only a handful actually matter. Again, I'd like to underline this is not players' fault.

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Ydoum wrote:

Now, there's a ton more variability, but at the same time - only the most tryhard meta builds are able to complete all the content that's available.

This is, of course, not players' fault

It actually is the players fault, as your first line is a false assumption to begin with. It's possible to complete any content up to tier 16 100% delirium maps on absolutely any build, the question is only if the player in question is capable of doing so.

I've got a wide variety of builds at the moment and all of them can do endgame content while for the most part having <2% usage on POE Ninja. Some are better than others, some excel at quick mapping, others at bossing, but when it comes to doing the content they all can AND with essentially no budget requirement beyond a 6 link armor. I can't say for sure if each and every one of them could beat tier 16 100% delirium in their current state, some might not be ready for that yet, but with some more investment it would be no problem as high delirium is a mere DPS check at the end of the day and everything below is certified doable.

Try hard meta builds are better and more efficient at doing stuff any easier to make work maybe but it's not like you need them for anything. That's like saying you need a formula 1 racer to win a bycicle race, no you don't, any car will do here.

I am a new player and unaware, thinking allong the lines of "i want to learn the basics so i'll start with a health based melee character" my first 2 builds turn out to be some of the least popular. In order: The frostblades berserker and the Earthquake juggernaut.

As the berserker was my very first char and got only like 2ex worth of equipment, i didnt really manage to do the bosses with it, but im quite confident that it could do so with slightly better gear. Even at 2ex investment it was already an insane map clearer. The Juggernaut, my second ever char, has gotten about 20ex investment and is pretty decent at both clearing and bosses. He just sucks a bit at blight unfortunately. I am also quite confident that i could change things up on those builds like using any of the other slam skills instead of earthquake and it would still be fine. The FB berserker has such an excess of damage already at 2ex that i am certain it can change up a lot of stuff and still be a good clearer. (and potentially at high investment it could be more balanced by giving up damage for survivability or being less dependent on charged/rage and the build-up time needed for those)

So for me, it looks like even the unpopular builds are doing fine.
I am however building my third character and it will be the thing you all do: EK aura dude. We'll see how i think about balance after that is done. Im still gearing and reading guides and havent played it yet, but i admit i'm already getting this awkward feeling that aura's instead of being a cost to yourself for the benefit of others are actually the most effective defence for yourself too. That might be imbalanced.

The percentage played of each class/skill also looks insanely imbalanced on poe.ninja. But is it really that imbalanced or does everyone just copy the build of a very few streamers or those who lead in the challenges the first few days? I'm about to find out.

It will be another factor 10 more expensive again (just bought the HH) so it wont be any sort of fair comparison. (didnt feel like investing more in the juggernaut because there is only little more to gain, still feel like someday i should build a 200ex version of the berserker though)

The advent of timed leagues is why ability variety in this game is dead.

Baharoth is correct in saying that you could technically complete 100% delirium T16 maps with any build. It will be an absolute hell of a slog as you take forever killing everything (even worse if you add other factors like Beyond), but you could beat it.

And then if you tried a normal Delirium encounter, you'll probably end up making next to nothing, because your build isn't powerful enough to chase the fog. The same goes with Legion, as you only have a few seconds to free as many enemies as you can. Incursion? You better hope you rolled map mods that didn't buff enemy HP/defense while nerfing your damage, otherwise you'll only have enough time to kill the architect and nothing else.

You may enjoy having fun with your sub-par build, but you'll have to live with the fact that your decision to run it will exclude you from certain activities. I don't think players should be required to make several builds to tackle different aspects of the game.

(And this doesn't cover whether or not these sub-par builds will remain viable if and when GGG buffs mob HP and damage yet again, because of powercreep.)

I started playing before leagues came out and the time that the game could be properly praised for its build variety was before Breach league which was a long time ago. Since that league, variety has been on a downward spiral as viability became more important. And as viability becomes more important, the costs become greater. Not only are you now corralled into a diminishing selection of viable builds, your ability to obtain currency dictates what you'll be allowed to play.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

It actually is the players fault, as your first line is a false assumption to begin with. It's possible to complete any content up to tier 16 100% delirium maps on absolutely any build, the question is only if the player in question is capable of doing so.

(...)

Try hard meta builds are better and more efficient at doing stuff any easier to make work maybe but it's not like you need them for anything. That's like saying you need a formula 1 racer to win a bycicle race, no you don't, any car will do here.

This. +1.


My opinion is - If in beta there would be as many streamers as now and as many yt videos as now, then we would also have strong meta. People would play only most efficient builds then, but playerbase/streamerbase/ytbase wasn't big enough for meta to clarify so easly - because why would anyone play the build that could clear docks in 10min, when they could use a build that clear it in 1min.

1) not all builds (and i mean PROPER builds) can do all content. t16 100% delirium.. it is just a start. t19 100% deli with all the juice - i dare anyone believing this romantic fairy tale to try that. ive tried it once or twice with 'pretty good' builds. lol no. just.. no.

deli maps are not only INSANE dps checks but also tankiness check. paper characters (aka not abusing stuff like 80% damage mitigation - 2*nebuoch, divine flesh, transcedence - this type of stuff) rely on pure luck there.

2) outline of generic-meta-build is very simple:

- has to be able to deal damage while moving (hit once and run in circles count) or from range.
- has to use a skill that for some unknown reason deals 300% damage of second best
- has to use a completely stupid item GGG introduced to the game due to whatever reason (this league: Replica Alberon's Warpath boots)
- has to be able to fit one of THE defensive systems (if defence == offence like in case with mana stacking - even better)

this set of rules hasnt changed in years. thus the top 10 skills is exactly like the one 1 year ago (with Earthshatter being the ONLY exception)

if you have a build that has to stand toe-to-toe with an enemy to deal damage using a skill that deals 20% of 'meta' options, uses 'regular' items (because given build cannot use broken ones) and cannot get Divine Flesh/Transcedence/MoM stacked.. you are left with a character that wont get anywhere near top-end

after you get a grip on how this game works (or rather - we think it works, because bugs are RAMPANT currently..) you can immediately spot 'good' builds and 'junk' builds just by checking the meta-build checklist..

3) cost. so 100ex melee can do the same 10ex caster or 5ex summoner can do? then we have a problem.

some build options have lower 'expected expenditure' than others. DoT builds are notorious for being strong on a budget. not only because you get 'damage on the move' and 'cheap damage from gem levels' but because due to lack of damage sources, existing ones are VERY efficient and the base damage is higher than alternatives

4) layering damage. some builds can layer damage from different sources while investing into said source once. summoners are notorious. one-type summoner (like - all zombies, nothing else) is already strong enough. but you can get spectres and golems and whatnot without spending a single extra passive for extra damage.

melee dude pong ponging will never match it.


notable mentions:

Blade Vortex - around 3 times more damage than other spells. physical - thus poison and conversion options are open. this skill was at least near EVERY broken OP build since the day it got released

Cyclone - obvious..

Toxic Rain - DoT, damage overlap, very cheap scaling, pretty sick numbers built into the gem. top bow pick since release (temporarily matched with Scourge arrow (cold variant) for delving))

Summoners - it is boring at this point. no budget needed, no brain cells needed, anything you make with them works..


on the other end of the spectrum we have skills that deal just as much damage as ranged AOE skills but happen to be no-aoe no-range skills.. :

Cleave or Dual Strike or Lightning Tendrils at the very bottom, Sweep in the next-up junk tier etc etc

any build using these is automatically made MUCH better by replacing main skill with a good one. do that few times and you have your meta set of the same 10 skills every league.

not a problem you say? try playing these bottom tier skills in t19 100% and tell us how it went. for plenty of said builds t16 100% will be a brick wall already (unless you throw mirrors on gear but even then - it doesnt make skill good, there is objectively no reason to play bad skill when good one requires 1/10th of an investment)





oh and one build being able to do something (2 nebuloch being tanky and dealing 'some' damage) doesnt make melee good :) melee is outside 'meta' for a reason - it sucks. it really truly does suck because alternatives can do everything melee does but cheaper/easier/safer/faster/..

even this leagues 'melee exploit' (Call of Steel + Slam stacking) brought it barely to levels 'good' builds utilize. it looks 'strong' for a melee but compared to meta builds? it is pretty average.
that should be enough of a proof.

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Nomancs wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

It actually is the players fault, as your first line is a false assumption to begin with. It's possible to complete any content up to tier 16 100% delirium maps on absolutely any build, the question is only if the player in question is capable of doing so.

(...)

Try hard meta builds are better and more efficient at doing stuff any easier to make work maybe but it's not like you need them for anything. That's like saying you need a formula 1 racer to win a bycicle race, no you don't, any car will do here.

This. +1.


My opinion is - If in beta there would be as many streamers as now and as many yt videos as now, then we would also have strong meta. People would play only most efficient builds then, but playerbase/streamerbase/ytbase wasn't big enough for meta to clarify so easly - because why would anyone play the build that could clear docks in 10min, when they could use a build that clear it in 1min.

thats the best part of all these discussions. people defending the sorry state of this game are pretty much ALWAYS playing FOTM builds but telling others that playing crap builds is fine..

try play this crap you call 'adequate' for once, getting 100 with carrion golems is many times easier than getting 95 with 2h Cleave, even if you spend twice the money on the melee build..

seriously, talk is cheap. try it and stop pretending that stuff that is not enough for you is good enough for others.

"

Pizzarugi wrote:

The advent of timed leagues is why ability variety in this game is dead.

Baharoth is correct in saying that you could technically complete 100% delirium T16 maps with any build. It will be an absolute hell of a slog as you take forever killing everything (even worse if you add other factors like Beyond), but you could beat it.

And then if you tried a normal Delirium encounter, you'll probably end up making next to nothing, because your build isn't powerful enough to chase the fog. The same goes with Legion, as you only have a few seconds to free as many enemies as you can. Incursion? You better hope you rolled map mods that didn't buff enemy HP/defense while nerfing your damage, otherwise you'll only have enough time to kill the architect and nothing else.

You may enjoy having fun with your sub-par build, but you'll have to live with the fact that your decision to run it will exclude you from certain activities. I don't think players should be required to make several builds to tackle different aspects of the game.

(And this doesn't cover whether or not these sub-par builds will remain viable if and when GGG buffs mob HP and damage yet again, because of powercreep.)

I started playing before leagues came out and the time that the game could be properly praised for its build variety was before Breach league which was a long time ago. Since that league, variety has been on a downward spiral as viability became more important. And as viability becomes more important, the costs become greater. Not only are you now corralled into a diminishing selection of viable builds, your ability to obtain currency dictates what you'll be allowed to play.

I was including timed events as well when i said you can do anything. Even the absolute clearing slowpoke among my builds, the HOA Guardian, can build a full temple with all upgrades/connections. In Legions freeing all mobs hardly even matters for your loot result, you only have to free the rares/boxes that actually contain loot, the rest is irrelevant. And Delirium, that depends more on the map layout then on the build. Even a slowpoke can make 20+ splinters on a tropical island map, on a cage map on the other hand even the fastest build will have a hard time getting half as many.

If we are talking about doing Incursions in a 100% delirium map, that's when i start noticing that i am running low budget builds but that again isn't a matter of "bad builds" it's just a matter of investment. Throw a couple more EX at any of them and you can clear that shit just as well. You need about 1,5-2 mio DPS to comfortably clear 99% of the content up to tier 8 Sirus from my expierence.
If you want to include tier 16+ 100% delirium with full juice you'll have to double or maybe tripple that depending on build but reaching 5+ million DPS is absolutely possible with any skill and any build. And you won't require mirror tier gear for it, not even close. Top tier meta builds reach hundreds of millions of dps, nobody needs that much, the content that requires shit like that isn't even in the game. Even 20+ million is far more than you will ever actually need, that's only needed if you plan on killing endgame bosses in <2 seconds.

thats pure theorycrafting..

have you actually tried that personally? like you know - play T19 100%?

i doubt that. health and damage reduction scaling on that is preeeety steep. as in 'rares have Shaper's HP' steep

you talking about 'Incursions' makes it plainly obvious that you simply have no clue what happens when you enter T19 with any form of mods + juice + beyond.

you cannot do these maps 'slow', youll get swarmed. being tanky helps but i doubt any of your non-nebuloch chars can withstand firepower of that magnitude

try it first, spread 'rumours' later. please. some new players might actually believe the stuff you type and then regret their build choices

Judging by your talk you haven't even tried tier 16 100% delirium not to mention tier 19 so you are in no position to ask for "prove" or to demand others try something. All i ever heard from you is theorycrafting and arm chair general nonsense right out of your rear while hiding your chars.

Maybe i can't do a tier 19 100% delirium map, who knows i'll find out soon enough, you were sure i couldn't even do tier 16 and you were wrong so your judgement isn't much to go by. But even if i can't. The gap between my chars and even a decent non budget build is huge, if i can't do this, anyone who takes the build past essential SSF levels most likely can. Not to mention that tier 19 100% is the absolute endgame among endgame, if some complete off meta low budget builds can't handle that that doesn't prove anything. You are literally grasping at straws and extremes here to try to prove a point that's just complete nonsense to begin with.