Let's talk about P2W - What is it? What is it not?

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kuciol wrote:

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Exile009 wrote:

It's not in the least bit self-explanatory, which is why we're having an argument over it to begin with - and why this thread with a survey exists. We're already seeing two different interpretations here, neither of which is self-contained in the term itself.

By your interpretation, a whole slew of commonly accepted pay2win games (such as so much on mobile, as well as even some infamous non-mobile titles) would actually not deserve that label. Fair enough. You're free to argue for that interpretation, but please don't pretend it's obvious. We aren't.

And if you want to put some arbitrary time calculation on a definition, I'd question your basis for said calculation. Cos that argument will be endless since it's fundamentally about subjective tolerance levels, which vary. It's a pretty shitty way to do definitions because, as mentioned, it's basically arbitrary. Unless you have some objectively justifiable criterion in mind for what extents count as a pay2win and what don't, that's just your opinion.

But it is! I told you that context matters. I gave an example of time for warframe, where 1 week is really meaningless and thus doesnt make game p2w because it doesnt give you any real benefit. For PoE it would be totally different. It all depends on what game and what item we are talking about. Even modes in the same game could differ. Exp potion in league would give you very noticeable advantage but the same potion in standard would really be meaningless. Thats what i mean when i said context matters.

If said item, any item is pretty much mandatory in any way then its p2w. If you can do fine without it then its not. Thats how you define pay to win. You can argue if said item is or isnt mandatory but definition of p2w doesnt change, doesnt have any levels. Something just is or isnt p2w.

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Exile009 wrote:

So apparently it's possible to argue over the contents of a definition, but the definition doesn't change? Errr...that sounds like a pretty shitty definition to me. I mean, Imma just go ahead and say a hundred stash tabs is mandatory, and suddenly your definition works for my purposes. That's an opinion - you'll disagree, I'll say we can agree to disagree and congratulations! We've gotten nowhere.

Then there's the whole time element of your argument. Even accepting that context matters and will vary from game to game, what is the significance of 1 week? Or 6 months? Or 10 years? How are you choosing these numbers? Upon what basis? How are you claiming that 1 week is meaningless but half a year isn't? Is there any objective rationale for that judgment? No, it's just an arbitrary number, chosen as per your tolerance levels. So what makes your tolerance levels so special? What makes anyone's feelings on the issue special? Even within the same game, same context, what justifies these numbers? How is there going to form any consensus around them? This isn't the speed of light, measurable from nature itself. It isn't based on a carefully defined set of criterion, such as the basis upon which the number of planets in the solar system is decided (and even then there was controversy when Pluto was dropped). And I contend that it's also not something there's likely to be much agreement over in the community, which is the least basis needed for all good artificially chosen numbers (like how long an astronomical unit should be). The best you'd be able to achieve is some sort of narrow plurality (not majority, just the one with the highest number of votes) win in a public vote among the community, and even then chances are more people would've voted against it (i.e. for all the other options combined) than for the winning time period. Basically, your definition bakes in endless contention and acrimony.

On the other hand, our definition doesn't have these weaknesses. The only argument to be had over it is whether something gives you a gameplay advantage or not, which is typically much easier for people to agree on. No, you very rarely see people argue that skins offer gameplay advantages - one of the only examples of that in this game's history was when the first Divine Ire mtx was released, which showed the radius of the skill better than the default, and that was fixed up pretty quickly by improving the base skills' visuals. Apart from contrived examples for the sake of argument, that doesn't come up very much. On the other hand, stash tabs have come up pretty much since this game's inception. Other very common examples you hear of are some of the things mentioned in the survey - loot pets, item quantity increases and the like. Generally speaking, you're going to see a lot more consensus over whether something offers a gameplay advantage or not, than over what specific amount of gameplay advantage crosses the line or not. You think 1 week is meaningless, but plenty of others will disagree. And that makes your criterion a pretty terrible way to decide things. Any definition should always have as one of its core aims that a reasonable level of agreement over it can be expected. And our definition hews closer to that than yours ever will.

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j33bus wrote:

So by your definition if path of exile sold exalts to players it wouldn't be pay to win?

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kuciol wrote:

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j33bus wrote:

So by your definition if path of exile sold exalts to players it wouldn't be pay to win?

It is very defined advantage isnt it? But for SSF and you cant race with that and cant migrate? Sure, why not.

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Gulch wrote:

You can't WIN anything in this game. Pay to win what, exactly? WTF are people winning?

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j33bus wrote:

Trading, sorting and storing better is also a very defined advantage with the tabs though.

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crunkatog wrote:

Time is money, in-game and irl. Anything that saves you time, potentially helps you win by freeing you to gain exp and complete objectives rather than sort and sift through trash.

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kuciol wrote:

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crunkatog wrote:

Time is money, in-game and irl. Anything that saves you time, potentially helps you win by freeing you to gain exp and complete objectives rather than sort and sift through trash.

So what are you winning exactly? Keyword "potentially" implies you dont know. Everyone just says how p2w they are but non of you can specify what it is that you are winning. Dont even try to say "time" because you play games to waste it in the first place.

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element274 wrote:

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Gulch wrote:

You can't WIN anything in this game. Pay to win what, exactly? WTF are people winning?

My thoughts exactly.

First define what are the conditions of winning in PoE then we can have a discussion of what particular MTX is pay-to-win.