Let's talk about P2W - What is it? What is it not?

Pay to win is generally considered to be selling a distinct advantage over not paying.

Anything that saves you time or any QoL feature that a non paying player doesn't get is pay to win.

Buying levels is obviously pay to win, but ask yourself is buying stash tabs really different at it's core? Sure one is more pay to win, but is buying easy trade and more storage really different?

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j33bus wrote:

Pay to win is generally considered to be selling a distinct advantage over not paying.

Anything that saves you time or any QoL feature that a non paying player doesn't get is pay to win.

Thats also very broad and unfair point of view. If for example paying lets you save lets say a week for something that will be relevant for a year its in no way p2w. Warframe has something like this and calling that game p2w would be the most stupid thing ever. On the other hand when you would be able to skip lets say 4 months that would be p2w because that time to catch up is unreasonable. It always depends on how long will it take to catch up and what it really gives you.

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kuciol wrote:

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j33bus wrote:

Pay to win is generally considered to be selling a distinct advantage over not paying.

Anything that saves you time or any QoL feature that a non paying player doesn't get is pay to win.

Thats also very broad and unfair point of view. If for example paying lets you save lets say a week for something that will be relevant for a year its in no way p2w. Warframe has something like this and calling that game p2w would be the most stupid thing ever. On the other hand when you would be able to skip lets say 4 months that would be p2w because that time to catch up is unreasonable. It always depends on how long will it take to catch up and what it really gives you.

Warframe is totally pay to win it's just an acceptable amount of pay to win. If it gives you an advantage it's pay to win flat out. You're arguing how much pay to win is too much pay to win. Philosophically saving minutes shouldn't actually be different than saving months in the binary sense of is it or isn't it.

This is like saying stealing bread to feed your family isn't stealing. It's still stealing, but most people would say it's not unethical.

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CrazylikE wrote:

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Gulch wrote:

You can't WIN anything in this game. Pay to win what, exactly? WTF are people winning?

There are rare times when you can win real life stuff in PoE, like the recent laptop. I don't think buying some stash tabs makes the game P2W in any way though. It's pay for convenience imo, which is fair in a free to play game. If they had exp potions, item quantity/rarity potions and such, then I wouldn't play the game, but as long as its stash tabs, decorations and cosmetics, go ahead.

You do know that by his logic even things like "exp potions, item quantity / rarity potions and such" aren't pay2win, right? His argument is basically that since this isn't a PvP game and/or doesn't have many tournaments with real cash prizes, anything goes. Including things you've drawn the line on.

Anyway, I don't agree with him, and wrt to your list I think stash tabs are really skirting the line there (the potions would clearly cross it). They offer a very significant gameplay advantage, the only saving grace being that that advantage doesn't scale infinitely i.e. you don't get much from buying a million stash tabs. But buying a decent set of tabs beyond the default 4 helps a ton, which is why I consider PoE to really be a $30-40 game at this point. Just not prior to even playing it, so more a try-before-you-buy sorta thing.

As for OP's survey, I voted. I do hope Google recognizes responses from the same participant though, since it was letting me submit responses again, which would obviously skew the results if those were just added to the pile rather than replacing your previous response.

For what it's worth, some of those features (like the auto-loot pets for low currencies) are actually things I'd love to see in the game, but absolutely NOT as a paid feature. So it felt kinda bad to vote against them, because I wasn't against the feature but just how the feature was to be obtained.

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j33bus wrote:

Warframe is totally pay to win it's just an acceptable amount of pay to win. If it gives you an advantage it's pay to win flat out. You're arguing how much pay to win is too much pay to win. Philosophically saving minutes shouldn't actually be different than saving months in the binary sense of is it or isn't it.

This is like saying stealing bread to feed your family isn't stealing. It's still stealing, but most people would say it's not unethical.

No dude, pay to win is pretty self explanatory term, you need to pay to win. If you dont have to do that then its not. What advantage does it give you to have something week faster when you can do exactly the same things with other tools and and get that specific tool a week later? Answer : none. Thats not p2w in any way, shape or form.

@UP No, those potions would be p2w because context matters. That exactly my point.

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kuciol wrote:

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j33bus wrote:

Pay to win is generally considered to be selling a distinct advantage over not paying.

Anything that saves you time or any QoL feature that a non paying player doesn't get is pay to win.

Thats also very broad and unfair point of view. If for example paying lets you save lets say a week for something that will be relevant for a year its in no way p2w. Warframe has something like this and calling that game p2w would be the most stupid thing ever.

Warframe has been called pay2win. Many times. And they're not all stupid. You then go on to apply a continuous logic to a binary question, which is stupid. The question here is what counts as pay2win, not whether all forms of pay2win are as bad as each other. Some kinds of paid advantages may be acceptable to some people, others not. But that doesn't negate the fact that they are still paid advantages. There are still levels of shittiness when it comes to pay2win, but even at level 1 it still falls in the category of pay2win.

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Exile009 wrote:

Warframe has been called pay2win. Many times. And they're not all stupid. You then go on to apply a continuous logic to a binary question, which is stupid. The question here is what counts as pay2win, not whether all forms of pay2win are as bad as each other. Some kinds of paid advantages may be acceptable to some people, others not. But that doesn't negate the fact that they are still paid advantages. There are still levels of shittiness when it comes to pay2win, but even at level 1 it still falls in the category of pay2win.

No dude, there are no levels, something is or isnt p2w, thats it. Paying for something doesnt automatically make game p2w. Context matters. You just have very scuffed definition of what qualifies to p2w. Going with your stupid logic even skins could qualify as p2w because they may be harder to see in pvp games for example. Thats just.. no and i mean HELL NO! Dude up brought up potions that give very defined advantage and those would be p2w because its something beyond, something you cant get without paying. Having something faster doesnt automatically make it advantageous.

Pay 2 Win is such a horrible name for what people treat it as.

More like pay for convenience. But everyone has their own definition.

For me if it is anything that gives you a special skill, equipment, or skips content, then it is pay to win. If it is something that gives you convenience, then it is just that convenience. Tabs are one of those things that kind fit in that grey area. I mean I can easily beat all the main areas of the game without buying any and have done so. But it is not as fun.

On the other hand, if you have to buy the game to even play it would have to be pay 2 win, since if you can't win if you can't play.

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kuciol wrote:

No dude, pay to win is pretty self explanatory term, you need to pay to win. If you dont have to do that then its not. What advantage does it give you to have something week faster when you can do exactly the same things with other tools and and get that specific tool a week later? Answer : none. Thats not p2w in any way, shape or form.

It's not in the least bit self-explanatory, which is why we're having an argument over it to begin with - and why this thread with a survey exists. We're already seeing two different interpretations here, neither of which is self-contained in the term itself.

By your interpretation, a whole slew of commonly accepted pay2win games (such as so much on mobile, as well as even some infamous non-mobile titles) would actually not deserve that label. Fair enough. You're free to argue for that interpretation, but please don't pretend it's obvious. We aren't.

And if you want to put some arbitrary time calculation on a definition, I'd question your basis for said calculation. Cos that argument will be endless since it's fundamentally about subjective tolerance levels, which vary. It's a pretty shitty way to do definitions because, as mentioned, it's basically arbitrary. Unless you have some objectively justifiable criterion in mind for what extents count as a pay2win and what don't, that's just your opinion.

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Exile009 wrote:

It's not in the least bit self-explanatory, which is why we're having an argument over it to begin with - and why this thread with a survey exists. We're already seeing two different interpretations here, neither of which is self-contained in the term itself.

By your interpretation, a whole slew of commonly accepted pay2win games (such as so much on mobile, as well as even some infamous non-mobile titles) would actually not deserve that label. Fair enough. You're free to argue for that interpretation, but please don't pretend it's obvious. We aren't.

And if you want to put some arbitrary time calculation on a definition, I'd question your basis for said calculation. Cos that argument will be endless since it's fundamentally about subjective tolerance levels, which vary. It's a pretty shitty way to do definitions because, as mentioned, it's basically arbitrary. Unless you have some objectively justifiable criterion in mind for what extents count as a pay2win and what don't, that's just your opinion.

But it is! I told you that context matters. I gave an example of time for warframe, where 1 week is really meaningless and thus doesnt make game p2w because it doesnt give you any real benefit. For PoE it would be totally different. It all depends on what game and what item we are talking about. Even modes in the same game could differ. Exp potion in league would give you very noticeable advantage but the same potion in standard would really be meaningless. Thats what i mean when i said context matters.

If said item, any item is pretty much mandatory in any way then its p2w. If you can do fine without it then its not. Thats how you define pay to win. You can argue if said item is or isnt mandatory but definition of p2w doesnt change, doesnt have any levels. Something just is or isnt p2w.