Exp Loss is freaking unbalanced

"

strongbong wrote:

Did you never reach lvl 70 yourself to see how much exp you lose in 1 death? I play for 10 hours exp grind, then die 2 times to desync(GGG's fault) and lose all that exp gained?

Why do I lose 10 hours because of your problems?

Pls explain how you will adress this problem.

]

lmfao if it takes you 10 hours then you're doing something wrong.

There's no argument here. If people wanted to play as though they were in Hardcore, they would play Hardcore. Let them.

"

iamstryker wrote:

2) Diablo 1's death penalty WAS NOT at all trivial. ALL of your gear dropped on the ground and you had to recover it naked, and even if you recovered it you STILL lost gold.

Actually you would just reload the game.

Or restore your back-up save file.

If it somehow transpired you managed to die in a game where you had infinite life points.

"

iamstryker wrote:

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deteego wrote:

The death penalties were completely trivial and miniscule compared to this game

Its also 13 year old mechanic

You can't compare the two

1) I absolutely can compare the two. Path of Exile is supposed to be a successor to the diablo franchise. It doesn't matter how old those games are. Plus PoE is not straight out copying them.

False, Chris stated in an interview that he doesn't want PoE to be D2's spiritual successor, he wants PoE to be a a "very good RPG"

"

iamstryker wrote:

2) Diablo 1's death penalty WAS NOT at all trivial. ALL of your gear dropped on the ground and you had to recover it naked, and even if you recovered it you STILL lost gold.

That is completely trivial, at least when you compare it to PoE. The fact that your gear dropped on the ground is irrelevant because you would just go to the same place and pick it up (you would go to the same place in PoE anyways)

In D1 it was also practically impossible to die due to how much health you had, in fact you had to try to get yourself killed in that game (which is complete opposite of PoE)

The gold sink was nothing compared to the exp sink in PoE as well

"

iamstryker wrote:

I will let someone else argue about D2's death penalty since I didn't play as much D2 and can't remember as much about it.

I have played both games extensively

D1 and D2's (and TL and TL2 and TQ and D3 while we are at it) had much much much more lenient penalty of death (whether it was exp or not). The fact that you had to pick up gear in games like D1 or D2 was completely irrelevant, because you would be returning to the same area anyways. In TQ it was the same, when you died a gravestone was placed at your death, which you picked up to get back exp (I also think it was 5%). Again, 99% of the time, when you die, you would return to that same area regardless to continue farming (where you would pick up the gravestone, or your loot, or w/e)

I say this right here and right now, PoE's death penalty is the harshest out of any aRPG out there, lets not pussy foot around this fact. This may not be an issue if PoE was generally as easy (outside of the death penalty) as the other aRPG, but it isn't (especially with how things work regarding armor and dying and whatnot). By generally, I mean accounting for various builds, PoE is actually very easy if you do the fotm builds (EK/LA/PS/dual totem with aura stacking, etc etc)

"

thepmrc wrote:

I seem to remember that the actual amount lost and the % regained varied, but I could be mistaken there. How often would you actually be able to recover your corpse though solo? Typically if you died with all your gear on you would just be dying again trying to get your corpse back.

For one things, dying in those games was a lot harder in PoE. You would only die in those games once every few hours (at best), and usually due to really careless mistakes

This is different from PoE, where literally anything can kill you at any time due to certain mechanics (shock stacking, crits, the way vision works, paths in doors, LMP, way armor works etc etc). There are just so many more things in PoE that can kill you in this game than any other comparable aRPG

There is nothing bad with this of course, dying in the other games were incredibly rare, even if you were a casual player so its nice that PoE takes a different stance, but if they are, this is an argument in not making the death penalty so harsh. Honestly you would only die in those games if u were extremely careless. If you followed the content strictly (and didn't do anything that was way past your level), you basically wouldn't die. In PoE, you can easily die even if you follow the content normally (and not just trying to do a 70 map when you are level 65)

Secondly, picking up your corpse wasn't difficult at all, it was literally just clicking on the corpse that dropped to the ground. If there were mobs still around, you would just lead them around a circle so you could get to your gear.

Its a combination of both making the death penalty ridiculous (which compared to EVERY single other aRPG it is) and making dying more common.

Honestly if you don't believe me, play the games yourself. TQ/TL/TL2 are very cheap on steam, and D2 entire pack is like 10 bucks

"

LimitedRooster wrote:

Actually you would just reload the game.

Or restore your back-up save file.

If it somehow transpired you managed to die in a game where you had infinite life points.

I consider back up files to be duping (cheating).

What do you mean infinite life points?

Reload the game?

Very confused.

"

thepmrc wrote:

I seem to remember that the actual amount lost and the % regained varied, but I could be mistaken there. How often would you actually be able to recover your corpse though solo? Typically if you died with all your gear on you would just be dying again trying to get your corpse back.

In early versions of the game the corpse recovery was worth 50% of lost exp instead of 75%, and you only had one corpse so if you died lots of times in a row you could only recover exp from the first death. They patched it at some point for that increased percentage and unlimited corpses.

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deteego wrote:

Its a combination of both making the death penalty ridiculous (which compared to EVERY single other aRPG it is) and making dying more common.

Hm. That's actually a good point.

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deteego wrote:

False, Chris stated in an interview that he doesn't want PoE to be D2's spiritual successor, he wants PoE to be a a "very good RPG"

I'd like to see that if its true. Everyone has always told me that this is supposed to be a spritual successor to D2. But either way I still think I can compare them. The devs obviously loved Diablo and they are the biggest ARPG's to compare to.

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deteego wrote:

That is completely trivial, at least when you compare it to PoE. The fact that your gear dropped on the ground is irrelevant because you would just go to the same place and pick it up (you would go to the same place in PoE anyways)

Getting back to your loot and then defeating whatever killed you weakened because you HAVE NO GEAR ON, is not trivial. It took some time to get done before you could continue on again. Also the risk of losing ALL OF YOUR GEAR is not trivial and it did happen to people. Gold was pretty important and it sucked to lose part of it permanently.

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deteego wrote:

In D1 it was also practically impossible to die due to how much health you had, in fact you had to try to get yourself killed in that game (which is complete opposite of PoE)

The game becoming easy once you made your character OP doesn't really matter to this discussion. It had a death penalty that did matter. Also if you weren't paying attention you could always die.

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deteego wrote:

The gold sink was nothing compared to the exp sink in PoE as well

Losing some gold wasn't as bad as the exp loss but combined with trying to get your items back and the risk of losing it all it was pretty bad. I am grateful that this game doesn't make me risk losing my items. I also don't miss fighting the enemies naked.

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deteego wrote:

The fact that you had to pick up gear in games like D1 or D2 was completely irrelevant, because you would be returning to the same area anyways. In TQ it was the same, when you died a gravestone was placed at your death, which you picked up to get back exp (I also think it was 5%). Again, 99% of the time, when you die, you would return to that same area regardless to continue farming (where you would pick up the gravestone, or your loot, or w/e)

It wasn't irrelevant because it took time to do. I don't care if people think they were a bit more lenient. My only argument is that this game needs a death penalty that matters to people. If it needs to be reworked thats fine but I think its crazy that anyone would argue that there shouldn't be ANY death penalty. Dieing should be painful.

Diablo 3 was pretty hard when it came out but dieing meant nothing and the game showed how stupid that was. People just zerg rushed like crazy to complete the game. Dieing meant nothing.

"

iamstryker wrote:

"

deteego wrote:

False, Chris stated in an interview that he doesn't want PoE to be D2's spiritual successor, he wants PoE to be a a "very good RPG"

I'd like to see that if its true. Everyone has always told me that this is supposed to be a spritual successor to D2. But either way I still think I can compare them. The devs obviously loved Diablo and they are the biggest ARPG's to compare to.

Check the interview with gamespot, those are literal words from Chris

You can compare them if you want, but thats irrelevant if GGG has stated that this game is not a spiritual sucessor to D2 (not denying its influenced by D2, but they are very different things)

When your friends say this is a spiritual sucessor to D2, or people on the forum say that, they are wrong (in regards to GGG's intentions for the game)

"

deteego wrote:

That is completely trivial, at least when you compare it to PoE. The fact that your gear dropped on the ground is irrelevant because you would just go to the same place and pick it up (you would go to the same place in PoE anyways)

"

iamstryker wrote:

Getting back to your loot and then defeating whatever killed you weakened because you HAVE NO GEAR ON, is not trivial. It took some time to get done before you could continue on again. Also the risk of losing ALL OF YOUR GEAR is not trivial and it did happen to people. Gold was pretty important and it sucked to lose part of it permanently.

It wasn't for me, or for anyone else, since you could just lead mobs to another spot on the map. The gold sink from death was so low it was next to irrelevant

"

iamstryker wrote:

"

deteego wrote:

In D1 it was also practically impossible to die due to how much health you had, in fact you had to try to get yourself killed in that game (which is complete opposite of PoE)

The game becoming easy once you made your character OP doesn't really matter to this discussion. It had a death penalty that did matter. Also if you weren't paying attention you could always die.

How often you are going to die is just as relevant in this discussion when we are considering death penalties. If dying is rare, a big death penalty isn't that much of an issue

"

iamstryker wrote:

"

deteego wrote:

The gold sink was nothing compared to the exp sink in PoE as well

Losing some gold wasn't as bad as the exp loss but combined with trying to get your items back and the risk of losing it all it was pretty bad. I am grateful that this game doesn't make me risk losing my items. I also don't miss fighting the enemies naked.

Im sorry, you are incredibly wrong here

Gold was almost worthless past early levels in either of D1 or D2 (or TQ or TL). None of those games had any real gold sink. It was incredibly common to be just sitting with a butload of gold once you got into the middle of the game because you didn't have any way to spend the gold.

In fact gold was so useless in D2 that no one used it to trade, which is how D2 became famous for its bartering

"

iamstryker wrote:

"

deteego wrote:

The fact that you had to pick up gear in games like D1 or D2 was completely irrelevant, because you would be returning to the same area anyways. In TQ it was the same, when you died a gravestone was placed at your death, which you picked up to get back exp (I also think it was 5%). Again, 99% of the time, when you die, you would return to that same area regardless to continue farming (where you would pick up the gravestone, or your loot, or w/e)

It wasn't irrelevant because it took time to do. I don't care if people think they were a bit more lenient. My only argument is that this game needs a death penalty that matters to people. If it needs to be reworked thats fine but I think its crazy that anyone would argue that there shouldn't be ANY death penalty. Dieing should be painful.

But its something you would be doing anyway!

If you wanted to continue to play the game, you had to get back to area you died regardless (or somewhere nearby, which may as well was the area where you died). Thats why its irrrelevant. Obviously it took time to get there, but in every aRPG, unless you had some sought of a portal up, you would have to walk up to that same area to progress anyways (and if you already had a portal up, then it wouldn't make a difference, you would just port and pick up the corpse immediately)

"

iamstryker wrote:

Diablo 3 was pretty hard when it came out but dieing meant nothing and the game showed how stupid that was. People just zerg rushed like crazy to complete the game. Dieing meant nothing.

Actually you couldn't zerg rush in D3 if you died enough times because elite mobs health reset, and if you died enough times the timer became so long that elite mob packs would heal themselves every time you died.

Almost all of the deaths in D3 where due to elite packs (if you died often before that, you were just a really bad player). Elite Mob packs in that game healed if they were left alone for too long, and the death timer penalty easily went into the minutes if you died enough times

"

deteego wrote:

You can compare them if you want, but thats irrelevant if GGG has stated that this game is not a spiritual sucessor to D2 (not denying its influenced by D2, but they are very different things)

You originally posted that because its 13 years old its irrelevant. Just because its old doesn't make it irrilevant. It is relevant that the most well known ARPG's ever DID have a death penalty.

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deteego wrote:

It wasn't for me, or for anyone else, since you could just lead mobs to another spot on the map. The gold sink from death was so low it was next to irrelevant

Speak for yourself if you want but the death penalty did matter in the game for most players, especially newer players who haven't become OP yet. The gold loss alone was bad enough to want to avoid dieing. The game had a death penalty and it did matter.

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deteego wrote:

How often you are going to die is just as relevant in this discussion when we are considering death penalties. If dying is rare, a big death penalty isn't that much of an issue

People die rarely in this game as well. There's always going to be people on both ends of the spectrum. Those who struggle with dieing a lot and those who hardly ever struggle with dieing.

"

deteego wrote:

Gold was almost worthless past early levels in either of D1 or D2 (or TQ or TL). None of those games had any real gold sink. It was incredibly common to be just sitting with a butload of gold once you got into the middle of the game because you didn't have any way to spend the gold.

I don't know how much D1 you played but gold was always needed. When your a wizard using energy shield (like all did) you burned through mana potions like crazy so you were always buying potions. Also in case you found a really really nice item from wirt or grizwald it was great to have enough or almost enough gold to buy it. In which case your carting around a lot of gold and a big chunk of it would be taken if you died. I remember the game very well. I am not wrong. Also its my opinion that the death penalty was fairly bad, that also can not be wrong.

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deteego wrote:

In fact gold was so useless in D2 that no one used it to trade, which is how D2 became famous for its bartering

I am sure you have noticed by now that I am only talking about D1 because thats the game I played more and the one that I remember better.

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deteego wrote:

If you wanted to continue to play the game, you had to get back to area you died regardless (or somewhere nearby, which may as well was the area where you died). Thats why its irrrelevant. Obviously it took time to get there, but in every aRPG, unless you had some sought of a portal up, you would have to walk up to that same area to progress anyways (and if you already had a portal up, then it wouldn't make a difference, you would just port and pick up the corpse immediately)

I realize that but doing it naked took longer and was riskier. It was not uncommon to die more than once getting your items back. Yes sometimes it was easier than others but it still happened and it still took time. The risk of losing all of your items alone is scary enough to NOT want to die. Thats the biggest point here. Death was something to be avoided.

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deteego wrote:

Actually you couldn't zerg rush in D3 if you died enough times because elite mobs health reset, and if you died enough times the timer became so long that elite mob packs would heal themselves every time you died.

I know for a fact people zerged in D3. Death meant nothing and they used that to get to Diablo.

preach on.

I don't think he has ever played diablo 1 without hacks/duping. Try playing a warrior on D1 without cheating and tell me its hard to die in hell.

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iamstryker wrote:

Speak for yourself if you want but the death penalty did matter in the game for most players, especially newer players who haven't become OP yet. The gold loss alone was bad enough to want to avoid dieing. The game had a death penalty and it did matter.

Except you are wrong because you are ignoring time investment

The amount of time required to retrieve the gold lost in dying in those games took a 10 minutes of your time, when you started getting to late game it was even in a few minutes.

I am playing TQ right now, I died for the first time in weeks. I lost around 0.1% of my current gold

On the other hand, dying in PoE can easily wipe hours of your time in later levels

"

iamstryker wrote:

People die rarely in this game as well. There's always going to be people on both ends of the spectrum. Those who struggle with dieing a lot and those who hardly ever struggle with dieing.

Also false (unless you are doing the OP builds, stated earlier). There are so many mechanics in this game (shock,armor reduction,crits, being forced to stack health etc etc) that makes it much easier to die in this game. This is already pretty much established as fact, and many people say the same

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iamstryker wrote:

I don't know how much D1 you played but gold was always needed. When your a wizard using energy shield (like all did) you burned through mana potions like crazy so you were always buying potions. Also in case you found a really really nice item from wirt or grizwald it was great to have enough or almost enough gold to buy it. In which case your carting around a lot of gold and a big chunk of it would be taken if you died. I remember the game very well. I am not wrong. Also its my opinion that the death penalty was fairly bad, that also can not be wrong.

Yes this happened early game, once you got into midgame, gold was irrelevant. It was also irrelevant in D2 and TQ and TL. Its not irrelevant in D3 because of the AH, but than again the penalty for dying in D3 now is so low its not really an issue anymore

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iamstryker wrote:

I realize that but doing it naked took longer and was riskier. It was not uncommon to die more than once getting your items back. Yes sometimes it was easier than others but it still happened and it still took time. The risk of losing all of your items alone is scary enough to NOT want to die. Thats the biggest point here. Death was something to be avoided.

How?

All of the content up until the point you reached would have already been dead. In fact, the only game that broke this is PoE, where if you take too long/forget to portal in an earlier level of something like a dungeon, the mobs would have respawned (taking you longer to get the original point)

The only thing you had to do, was take the same path you took earlier to get to that spot (which was really easy because you already killed the mobs up until that point, you did kill the things in D1 as you were supposed to, right?). The only concern was if the mobs were around at the specific location of the corpse, in which case you just ran around in a circle (you don't fight/tank them) and then pick up your corpse

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iamstryker wrote:

I know for a fact people zerged in D3. Death meant nothing and they used that to get to Diablo.

Death was as irrelevant in D2 as it was in D3. I have played both games.

Death was arguably worse in D3 in later levels due to elite mob packs. There is a reason why many ex D2 players complained about this in D3 when it came out (the forums were flooded with this). In D3, when you died you lost gold and time, the time stacked continuously. This didn't happen in D2 at all.

Zerging in D2 was easily possible up until the really late levels

"

thepmrc wrote:

preach on.

I don't think he has ever played diablo 1 without hacks/duping. Try playing a warrior on D1 without cheating and tell me its hard to die in hell.

I have

Compared to PoE, its butloads harder (taking into account odds of dying and the penalty). D2 isn't even a fair comparison (which is what I thought u were comparing this game to)