While accidents always occur, there just has to be some form of punishment for dying one way or another. I think we can all see what would happen if there were just no punishment, a constant throwing of ourselves at the mobs until they eventually die just resetting down a portal. Come now, you all must see that that would be a problem.
So the question becomes, well then is the exp loss to great? I, for one, feel that it's fine. By the time exp loss is substantial, you've already made it close to, if not all, of Merciless. Meaning you had to have done something right with your build right? Could it use some tweeking? maybe. But you've got a good feel of the game now and should know how to avoid getting killed. Will accidents happen? sure. Desyncs? you bet. Those have to be planned for though.
Overall, exp losses really only start to REALLY hurt at around the 80s as we can easily see, where maps give fractions of percents of exp, and dying = dozens of maps. But by those times, you should have a solid build, and some pretty good gear, so the chances of dying slims down.
Feel free to disagree, i'm simply stating how i see it.
While accidents always occur, there just has to be some form of punishment for dying one way or another. I think we can all see what would happen if there were just no punishment, a constant throwing of ourselves at the mobs until they eventually die just resetting down a portal. Come now, you all must see that that would be a problem.
You probably didn't get to read the whole topic (who can blame you at 20+ pages) and other like it, this exact issue ("zerging" the content and using death as a progression mechanism) was pretty much made invalid. It's not the lack of a death penalty, but the cheese mechanisms available in PoE that allow zerging, i.e. stuff like portals with flask refills and Alt-F4... Death zerging can easily be avoided by resetting relevant content/mob HP on death and making people replay it until they get it right.
Also, nobody EVER asked for the complete removal of a death penalty, but its rethinking. Read the title: BALANCING.
I think I need to put these things in my sig :\
placeholder for creative sig
Last edited by Undon3#5633 on Mar 31, 2013, 8:22:29 PM
No one has ever had a character die and then say "Oh, thank god I also lose XP, because it would've been boring without that."
I am not kidding or exaggerating when I say that I HAVE said that. It makes me feel like Getting those really high lvls is something commendable and not every single person/build is going to be able to do it.
I honestly believe the game would be far more boring if there was no significant death penalty.
Edit: I think I can get on board with making merciless a little more forgiving (only a little), and norm/cruel a little tougher with the exp loss. Exp loss means nothing early game and means a lot late game. Does feel a little weird.
Standard Forever
Last edited by iamstryker#5952 on Apr 1, 2013, 12:24:13 AM
While accidents always occur, there just has to be some form of punishment for dying one way or another. I think we can all see what would happen if there were just no punishment, a constant throwing of ourselves at the mobs until they eventually die just resetting down a portal. Come now, you all must see that that would be a problem.
You probably didn't get to read the whole topic (who can blame you at 20+ pages) and other like it, this exact issue ("zerging" the content and using death as a progression mechanism) was pretty much made invalid. It's not the lack of a death penalty, but the cheese mechanisms available in PoE that allow zerging, i.e. stuff like portals with flask refills and Alt-F4... Death zerging can easily be avoided by resetting relevant content/mob HP on death and making people replay it until they get it right.
Also, nobody EVER asked for the complete removal of a death penalty, but its rethinking. Read the title: BALANCING.
I think I need to put these things in my sig :\
Why did you only read the first little bit and quote that? I talked further on about the current state of it as it appears to me. The beginning was just stating, probably as many many had before, the need for some form of one. Then went on to talk about it as it stands.
I apologize, but please don't just ignore a large portion of what I wrote.
As far as current "zerging" I'm not for certain, at least from my stand point, that this game has that kind of feature. If anything, it's constantly shooting off-screen/ putting a totem half a screen a way to inch by lol. Flasks don't guarantee life and a win, therefore i don't terribly see a problem with the current getting flasks refilled and porting back and what not. Altf4 is kinda a different situation in and of itself so i won't begin to bring it up.
And i don't think that simply refilling their hp will solve it either. It'll just prolong the problem i believe. As long as you're taking 1-2 down with you each time, eventually you'll still get to the "end" so to speak. Then the rebuttal could be well then you could have the instance just reset so you couldn't do that, to which the argument could be place what would happen with end game maps then? That seems like it would almost reward them. Shoot, they could clear the map, assuming solo, use in game mechanisms to kill themselves and simply do the whole map over again with no down side. More gear, more exp, more maps, losing nothing.
I'm not trying to be hostile nor negative, simply giving possible arguments to i believe to be some possible ideas to the proposed system.
Why did you only read the first little bit and quote that? I talked further on about the current state of it as it appears to me. The beginning was just stating, probably as many many had before, the need for some form of one. Then went on to talk about it as it stands.
I apologize, but please don't just ignore a large portion of what I wrote.
As far as current "zerging" I'm not for certain, at least from my stand point, that this game has that kind of feature. If anything, it's constantly shooting off-screen/ putting a totem half a screen a way to inch by lol. Flasks don't guarantee life and a win, therefore i don't terribly see a problem with the current getting flasks refilled and porting back and what not. Altf4 is kinda a different situation in and of itself so i won't begin to bring it up.
And i don't think that simply refilling their hp will solve it either. It'll just prolong the problem i believe. As long as you're taking 1-2 down with you each time, eventually you'll still get to the "end" so to speak. Then the rebuttal could be well then you could have the instance just reset so you couldn't do that, to which the argument could be place what would happen with end game maps then? That seems like it would almost reward them. Shoot, they could clear the map, assuming solo, use in game mechanisms to kill themselves and simply do the whole map over again with no down side. More gear, more exp, more maps, losing nothing.
I'm not trying to be hostile nor negative, simply giving possible arguments to i believe to be some possible ideas to the proposed system.
I've surely read the rest of your post. It wasn't my intention to quote you out of context, but to address a certain aspect of your post.
To respond to the rest of your post, yes, you shouldn't die often at high levels. You also shouldn't pay with maybe a few days of levelling in mid 80s for a single mistake or a desync. Take my case. I made a push from 82 to 83, and whatever I did, with a huge amount of currency spent on maps, still ran out of any maps, but 66s. Now, if I die at 83, with the maps I have, it will take me at least 2-3 days to get back at 4-5 hours/day. This is not reasonable. The XP penalty is reasonable maybe when you can recuperate in 30-40 minutes (at most!) the lost XP, and you also have content where to level up. Beyond that... what can I say. There is no need to be punished on more levels at once: you lose XP, you also basically lost the maps you ran for those 15%, and all the currency involved in their rolling :\
Also, there is no reason the game should punish you more the higher level you are. Absolutely none. The game should REWARD YOU more for reaching high levels.
placeholder for creative sig
Last edited by Undon3#5633 on Apr 1, 2013, 3:56:56 AM
Why did you only read the first little bit and quote that? I talked further on about the current state of it as it appears to me. The beginning was just stating, probably as many many had before, the need for some form of one. Then went on to talk about it as it stands.
I apologize, but please don't just ignore a large portion of what I wrote.
As far as current "zerging" I'm not for certain, at least from my stand point, that this game has that kind of feature. If anything, it's constantly shooting off-screen/ putting a totem half a screen a way to inch by lol. Flasks don't guarantee life and a win, therefore i don't terribly see a problem with the current getting flasks refilled and porting back and what not. Altf4 is kinda a different situation in and of itself so i won't begin to bring it up.
And i don't think that simply refilling their hp will solve it either. It'll just prolong the problem i believe. As long as you're taking 1-2 down with you each time, eventually you'll still get to the "end" so to speak. Then the rebuttal could be well then you could have the instance just reset so you couldn't do that, to which the argument could be place what would happen with end game maps then? That seems like it would almost reward them. Shoot, they could clear the map, assuming solo, use in game mechanisms to kill themselves and simply do the whole map over again with no down side. More gear, more exp, more maps, losing nothing.
I'm not trying to be hostile nor negative, simply giving possible arguments to i believe to be some possible ideas to the proposed system.
I've surely read the rest of your post. It wasn't my intention to quote you out of context, but to address a certain aspect of your post.
To respond to the rest of your post, yes, you shouldn't die often at high levels. You also shouldn't pay with maybe a few days of levelling in mid 80s for a single mistake or a desync. Take my case. I made a push from 82 to 83, and whatever I did, with a huge amount of currency spent on maps, still ran out of any maps, but 66s. Now, if I die at 83, with the maps I have, it will take me at least 2-3 days to get back at 4-5 hours/day. This is not reasonable. The XP penalty is reasonable maybe when you can recuperate in 30-40 minutes (at most!) the lost XP, and you also have content where to level up. Beyond that... what can I say. There is no need to be punished on more levels at once: you lose XP, you also basically lost the maps you ran for those 15%, and all the currency involved in their rolling :\
Also, there is no reason the game should punish you more the higher level you are. Absolutely none. The game should REWARD YOU more for reaching high levels.
i agree, it is much more punishing at higher levels, i think i said that somewhere too, idk, maybe it was a different thread. I believe really the problem starts to fall on the mobs: experience ratio. At around 80, like you said, maps just start being worth nothing, fractions of percents at some points, equaling days of play to move through tiny chunks. While i'm sure there has to be more end game stuff added, i'm hoping it'll even out the exp lost versus how fast you could get it. As you said, if it were evened out at higher levels by more exp being rewarded, i think the problem would shrink quite a bit. Other than that, i'm not quite sure how to properly "replace" the current system.
And i do apologize for assuming you didn't read my full post, thank you for putting up with that.
Why did you only read the first little bit and quote that? I talked further on about the current state of it as it appears to me. The beginning was just stating, probably as many many had before, the need for some form of one. Then went on to talk about it as it stands.
I apologize, but please don't just ignore a large portion of what I wrote.
As far as current "zerging" I'm not for certain, at least from my stand point, that this game has that kind of feature. If anything, it's constantly shooting off-screen/ putting a totem half a screen a way to inch by lol. Flasks don't guarantee life and a win, therefore i don't terribly see a problem with the current getting flasks refilled and porting back and what not. Altf4 is kinda a different situation in and of itself so i won't begin to bring it up.
And i don't think that simply refilling their hp will solve it either. It'll just prolong the problem i believe. As long as you're taking 1-2 down with you each time, eventually you'll still get to the "end" so to speak. Then the rebuttal could be well then you could have the instance just reset so you couldn't do that, to which the argument could be place what would happen with end game maps then? That seems like it would almost reward them. Shoot, they could clear the map, assuming solo, use in game mechanisms to kill themselves and simply do the whole map over again with no down side. More gear, more exp, more maps, losing nothing.
I'm not trying to be hostile nor negative, simply giving possible arguments to i believe to be some possible ideas to the proposed system.
I've surely read the rest of your post. It wasn't my intention to quote you out of context, but to address a certain aspect of your post.
To respond to the rest of your post, yes, you shouldn't die often at high levels. You also shouldn't pay with maybe a few days of levelling in mid 80s for a single mistake or a desync. Take my case. I made a push from 82 to 83, and whatever I did, with a huge amount of currency spent on maps, still ran out of any maps, but 66s. Now, if I die at 83, with the maps I have, it will take me at least 2-3 days to get back at 4-5 hours/day. This is not reasonable. The XP penalty is reasonable maybe when you can recuperate in 30-40 minutes (at most!) the lost XP, and you also have content where to level up. Beyond that... what can I say. There is no need to be punished on more levels at once: you lose XP, you also basically lost the maps you ran for those 15%, and all the currency involved in their rolling :\
Also, there is no reason the game should punish you more the higher level you are. Absolutely none. The game should REWARD YOU more for reaching high levels.
i agree, it is much more punishing at higher levels, i think i said that somewhere too, idk, maybe it was a different thread. I believe really the problem starts to fall on the mobs: experience ratio. At around 80, like you said, maps just start being worth nothing, fractions of percents at some points, equaling days of play to move through tiny chunks. While i'm sure there has to be more end game stuff added, i'm hoping it'll even out the exp lost versus how fast you could get it. As you said, if it were evened out at higher levels by more exp being rewarded, i think the problem would shrink quite a bit. Other than that, i'm not quite sure how to properly "replace" the current system.
And i do apologize for assuming you didn't read my full post, thank you for putting up with that.
Your posting style is greatly appreciated. I apologise as well for not making it more clear in the first place that I only intended to respond to the zerging thing. Take care :)
